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Voyager 1 breaks its silence with NASA via radio transmitter not used since 1981

smithsonianmag.com

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Re: Voyager 1 breaks its silence with NASA via radio transmitter not used since 1981

#71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The scenario where a gravity assist doesn't work is if turning sharply enough would require your minimum planetcentric approach distance to be less than the radius of the planet - you'd crash into it instead. This is why Voyager 2 couldn't also do Pluto - it would have needed to change course by roughly 90º at Neptune, which would have required going closer to the center of Neptune than Neptune's own radius. The most…

Could Voyager have reduced velocity, glanced off Neptune, waited for the return path on a narrow elliptical orbit, and then boosted to effectively make the 90° turn to Pluto at that time? Was that impossible given its Neptune approach trajectory, or would glancing off and waiting have been more fuel? And, why didn't this vortical model that includes the forward velocity of the sun make a difference for Voyager's orbi…

Breaking that down: Voyager itself couldn't have reduced velocity, it had nowhere near enough reaction mass to do that. Hypothetically a spacecraft could but you might be talking about orders of magnitude more reaction mass. (Which means multiples more of the fuel to launch and accelerate that mass itself, which could quickly escalate beyond any chemical rocket capabilities.)

It also likely wasn't possible to get to Pluto on some future Pluto orbital pass. The limiting factor is likely that Voyager's incoming trajectory to Neptune was already too far beyond solar escape velocity to get into that narrow elliptical orbit you propose. (You'd have to slingshot so close to Neptune's center that you'd hit the planet instead.)

Designing from the beginning to come in slower to Neptune and adjust to encounter Pluto on some future Pluto orbital pass was probably possible, but yeah you might be talking about time scales of Pluto's entire orbit or even multiples of that. (We do similar things for inner solar system missions, like several encounters with Venus separated by multiple Venus-years, but that's on the order of single-digit years and not hundreds.)

The common answer to a lot of these outlandish slingshot questions is usually, yes it's eventually possible by orbital mechanics, but it gets so complicated and lengthy that you may as well just build another separate spacecraft instead. We talk about Voyager's grand tour alignment because it's captivating, but realistically if that hadn't happened we would have just done separate Jupiter-Uranus and Jupiter-Neptune missions instead.

The sun's motion relative to the galaxy doesn't matter for any of this - nothing else in the galaxy is remotely close enough to affect anything, the nearest star is still over 1000x Voyager's distance.

Re: Voyager 1 breaks its silence with NASA via radio transmitter not used since 1981

#72
post #18
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the "battery" in the old ones is nuclear and it's going to be difficult to beat that Newer atomic batteries can theoretically last centuries instead of decades. V'ger 1 atomic battery is based on Plutonium-238 which has a halflife of ~88 years. It's down to ~210W output from initial 470W at launch time. Americium-241 has a half-life of over 400 years.

The longer the half life, the lower the power output, no free lunches. But by putting the same suitable radioactive lump in a stirling engine you can extract 4 times as much electricity: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stirling_radioisotope_generato... So yes maybe with Americium-241 we could have something which lasts 4 times a much _and_ gives us the same amount of power thanks to a SRG.

But it seems to involve moving parts, so I am not sure the reliability trade-off is worth it for decades/centuries long missions.

Re: Voyager 1 breaks its silence with NASA via radio transmitter not used since 1981

#73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding is that 1. Our rocket / propulsion technology today may be cheaper (thx largely to SpaceX), but it doesn't really necessarily provide MUCH more delta V. Meanwhile 2. Voyager launches relied on a once-in-a-blue-moon (not quite once in two centuries) alignment of various planetary bodies to give a spectacular orbital slingshot boosts. So my limited understanding is that we can't really overtake voyager…

The alignment isn't what matters for overtaking Voyager. Jupiter alone is enough, and New Horizons nearly did. Jupiter accounts for the vast majority of any gravity-assist plan. Saturn has 30% the mass and 2/3 of the orbital velocity, so it could only add 20% more over what you get from Jupiter alone, and the ice giants are smaller and slower yet.

> New Horizons nearly did.

New Horizons didn't nearly overtake Voyager. It's currently traveling about 4 km/s slower, and as it's still closer to the Sun, it's also decelerating more.

Re: Voyager 1 breaks its silence with NASA via radio transmitter not used since 1981

#74
post #31

I'm reading Pale Blue Dot to my kids at night currently so this is really awesome. (The Voyager missions are described in excellent detail in ways that I never appreciated fully before.) It blows my mind that these are machines from the 8-track era. And they have fallbacks and redundancies that were completely ahead of their time.

One feels a terrible disappointment Sagan didn't live to see the future mission projects he talks about in the book get finished and most of them succeeded IIRC. By happenstance the 2024 Solar System BBC series mostly uses animation but has some real photos and videos to document a lot of happened since the book was published.

The last time I read Cosmos I hit the part about the Cassini-Huygens mission where he wondered what we might find under the atmosphere of Titan, and was able to immediately just find out.

I imagine a lot of people who work on space missions do not outlive their work - which feels sad but also ... inspiring?

Re: Voyager 1 breaks its silence with NASA via radio transmitter not used since 1981

#75
post #38
post #3

Can we send a voyager 3 with much advance battery and sensor, and at much faster speed so that it may reach farther than voyager 1 and 2, in let’s say just couple of years ?

Even if we could there isn't much point. There just isn't very much out where the Voyagers are, and there won't be for a long time. We're shutting down sensors on Voyager because there just isn't much to see. It's just vacuum. If we had something capable of getting to Voyager in a year that might be worthwhile, because it would stand a chance of getting somewhere interesting in a few decades. But we are absolutely no…

> We're shutting down sensors on Voyager because there just isn't much to see.

That's not why Voyager's sensors are being shut down, they're being shut down because the probes no longer have the power to run them.

Re: Voyager 1 breaks its silence with NASA via radio transmitter not used since 1981

#76
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We probably do not need to wait for ideal planets position to outrun Voyagers. We have ion thruster now with much higher specific impulse! Voyager-2 gained about 10 km/s at Jupiter, about 5 km/s at Saturn, about 2 km/s at Uranus, and lost about 2 km/s at Neptune. [1] Dawn spacecraft gained 11.5 km/s from ion thrusters. So just gravity assist maneuver just around Jupiter alone + massive tank for ion thrusters gas migh…

Unfortunately a gravity assist maneuver is almost "incompatible" with an ion thruster. If you approach e.g. Jupiter you gain speed (it's pulling you in), which you then lose as you get away from it (as it's still pulling you in, meh). Gravity assists work because you use your chemical rocket right when you are closest and speed away, "robbing" Jupiter of the chance to claim the energy it lent you on approach. Ion thr…

I think you are mixing up gravity assist with the oberth effect. I'm pretty sure Voyagers did no massive burns close to the giant planets for example. A (so far theoretical) Solar Oberth maneuver on the other hand...

Re: Voyager 1 breaks its silence with NASA via radio transmitter not used since 1981

#77
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like this quote: “We didn’t design them to last 30 years or 40 years, we designed them not to fail,” John Casani, Voyager project manager from 1975 to 1977, says in a NASA statement.

That doesn't seem helpful. Nothing lasts forever, and if you don't figure out when it's going to fail, it's going to be sooner rather than later.

>Nothing lasts forever, and if you don't figure out when it's going to fail, it's going to be sooner rather than later.

You might be surprised about the reality of the situation.

I had a professor who worked on the design and fabrication of the Apollo Guidance Computers, which likely was a somewhat similar process to the one being discussed here. It's been quite a few years since his lecture on it, but the process went something like this:

They started with an analysis of the predicted lifetime/reliability of every chip type/component available to potentially include in the design.

The design was constrained to only use components with the top x% of predicted life.

Then they surveyed each manufacturer of each of those component types to find the manufacturer with the highest lifetime components for each of the highest lifetime component types.

Then they surveyed the manufacturing batches of that manufacturer, to identify the batches with the highest lifetimes from that manufacturer.

Then they selected components from the highest lifetime batches of from the highest lifetime manufacturers of the highest lifetime components.

Using those components, they assembled a series of guidance computers, in batches.

They tested those batches, pushing units from each batch to failure.

They then selected the highest quality manufacturing batch as the production units.

When he gave this talk, decades after the Apollo era, NASA had been continuing to run lifetime failure analyses on other units from the production batch, to try to understand the ultimate failure rate for theoretical purposes.

Several decades after the Apollo program ended, they had still never seen any failure events in these systems, and shortly before the time of his lecture, I believe NASA had finally shut off the failure testing of these systems, as they were so remote from then "modern" technology (this was decades ago, hence the quotes around "modern").

This is what happens when you have the best minds committed to designing systems that don't fail. Yes, the systems probably will fail before the heat death of the universe. No, we don't have any idea when that failure time will be. Yes, it's likely to be a very long time in the future.

(And, of course, this is typed from memory about a lecture decades ago on events happening decades before that. This being HN, someone here probably worked on those systems, in which case hopefully they can add color and fix any defects in the narrative above).

Re: Voyager 1 breaks its silence with NASA via radio transmitter not used since 1981

#78
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure! First, the nuclear power source is a giant hunk of plutonium. It is expensive to get, dangerous to use, and due to concerns about further refinement, is restricted internationally. Second, it is toxic inherently — the source is continuously radioactive at a hazardous level to humans, plutonium itself has acute and long-term toxic effects aside from the radioactivity, and if a launch fails, the rtg will disinteg…

I wonder if you could do a hybrid approach, where the nuclear device is very small, but able to charge the battery over a longer duration to the point where the solar panels can be repositioned and utilized again.

Lots of missions use radioisotopic heaters, where you don't bother with the thermocouples and just have the material get warm and protect components which are vulnerable to low temperatures.

That's the main reason why spacecraft don't survive a temporary power outage: terrible environmentals.

But at this point, we don't have a lot of Pu-238, which is one of the only decent candidates.

Re: Voyager 1 breaks its silence with NASA via radio transmitter not used since 1981

#79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The alignment isn't what matters for overtaking Voyager. Jupiter alone is enough, and New Horizons nearly did. Jupiter accounts for the vast majority of any gravity-assist plan. Saturn has 30% the mass and 2/3 of the orbital velocity, so it could only add 20% more over what you get from Jupiter alone, and the ice giants are smaller and slower yet.

> New Horizons nearly did. New Horizons didn't nearly overtake Voyager. It's currently traveling about 4 km/s slower, and as it's still closer to the Sun, it's also decelerating more.

Yes, I wrote that short for brevity. If you must have the full thing spelled out: New Horizons nearly got enough velocity at Jupiter to eventually overtake Voyager. 4 km/s is "nearly" in astronomical terms. New Horizons wasn't really trying to optimize for speed at Jupiter (its closest approach was over 10m km), and a spacecraft that did could easily overtake Voyager using Jupiter alone and not need an alignment with Saturn or anything else.

Re: Voyager 1 breaks its silence with NASA via radio transmitter not used since 1981

#80
post #3

Can we send a voyager 3 with much advance battery and sensor, and at much faster speed so that it may reach farther than voyager 1 and 2, in let’s say just couple of years ?

> let’s say just couple of years ?

Not a couple of years. The Voyagers have been doing around 38 000 mph since the late 1970's. That is rougly 17 km/s. The proposed Interstellar Probe mission aims to do 20 km/s or slightly more. It will take it decades to overtake any of them (no actual overtaking will probably take place though, as its trajectory most likely will be different).

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