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Sixteen U.S. states still ban community-owned broadband networks

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Re: Sixteen U.S. states still ban community-owned broadband networks

#71

Post by seabass-labrax »

Brian_K_White wrote: post #58

A hundred years ago on irc someone from Russia was describing their internet connection, which was ethernet, while I had only ever heard of dial up outside of large companies. It was just people had set up their own hubs and switches in their appartment buildings and strung cables between buildings. This blew my mind. They just ran themselves ethernet and everyone got a drop from a switch in their building. It wasn't…

That you can do what you describe is why I love the Internet! There is effectively no limit to the scale and topology of the network, and with a well-configured system you can literally yank cables out and find the network operating without more than a second or two of additional latency. I play chess on lichess.org, and when the Wi-Fi signal drops out my device switches to LTE without even interrupting the game!

The fact that all of the above is possible with only a single kind of cable and generic, 'dumb' switches is icing on the (seven-layer) cake.

Re: Sixteen U.S. states still ban community-owned broadband networks

#72

Post by HPsquared »

sabbaticaldev wrote: post #13
jvanderbot wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has a "Bitcoin will solve finance" feel to it. Not to be super dismissive, but there's just as much likelihood it will help as it won't. But in your corner: It's true that right now space-based deployment of broadband will provide broadband in locations where it's not currently available - perhaps spurring competition. It's also probably true that space-based broadband will be able to compete directly with urban…

TV made radio irrelevant, the internet made TV irrelevant. Both still exists but as money-losing mass manipulation tools

TV was always an advertising platform first and foremost. In other words a money-losing mass manipulation tool.

Re: Sixteen U.S. states still ban community-owned broadband networks

#73

Post by macspoofing »

wyldfire wrote: post #63
Brian_K_White wrote: post #58

A hundred years ago on irc someone from Russia was describing their internet connection, which was ethernet, while I had only ever heard of dial up outside of large companies. It was just people had set up their own hubs and switches in their appartment buildings and strung cables between buildings. This blew my mind. They just ran themselves ethernet and everyone got a drop from a switch in their building. It wasn't…

> Unimaginable in the US With good reason. Building codes in the US prevent disasters like the one that happened at Grenfell Towers in the UK. Run plenum-rated wires through an appropriate space for safety's sake.

> Building codes in the US prevent disasters like the one that happened at Grenfell Towers in the UK

US building codes are pretty good and well enforced, just as they are in the UK ... but even with that, you have a Surfside condominium collapse - so not perfect.

Re: Sixteen U.S. states still ban community-owned broadband networks

#74

Post by 0xcde4c3db »

alwayslikethis wrote: post #7
mrbluecoat wrote: post #2

Once space-based broadband Internet becomes widely available, I predict shortsighted ISPs will join the ranks of Kodak and Blockbuster.

Is the total possible bandwidth available on these even comparable to optical fibers?

SpaceX apparently doesn't like to give definitive numbers (perhaps there are too many configurable tradeoffs and/or dynamic adjustments to variable environmental conditions for that to make sense), but the downlink throughput of a Starlink V1 satellite is reportedly about 20 Gbps over an area of several square miles. Putting that on a single fiber wavelength is mature enough to be firmly in SOHO/homelab territory these days (e.g. QNAP and Mikrotik both have 25Gbps switches that are about $1000). It looks like commodity CWDM mux/demux boxes can cram 16 of those into a single fiber. It's safe to assume that the big guys like Comcast and CenturyLink/Lumen can get equipment capable of far more than that.

Re: Sixteen U.S. states still ban community-owned broadband networks

#75

Post by brk »

Brian_K_White wrote: post #58

A hundred years ago on irc someone from Russia was describing their internet connection, which was ethernet, while I had only ever heard of dial up outside of large companies. It was just people had set up their own hubs and switches in their appartment buildings and strung cables between buildings. This blew my mind. They just ran themselves ethernet and everyone got a drop from a switch in their building. It wasn't…

Odds are those connections weren't sanctioned by the building management and were the result of lax enforcement. There are actually plenty of smaller apartment buildings in the US where tenants could get away with this as long as they didn't damage the building or cause frustration for other tenants.

Re: Sixteen U.S. states still ban community-owned broadband networks

#76

Post by hobs »

bob1029 wrote: post #69
dv_dt wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That works out great until some capital pool decides to start acquiring smaller isps to roll them up into a larger corporate behemoth. As has happened in multiple other industries from groceries, animal vets, rentals, software niches, to hospitals and these days nursing homes Then the "efficiency" becomes how much can be extracted from the business and customers

Privately held companies have the option to reject these offers. A business doesn't have to be a non-profit or community-owned in order to do something principled. One good leader/owner is all it takes.

And one bad (next) owner, a hostile takeover, a change of ordinances, a license not renewed, etc - there's so many ways to use money and entrenched positions to destroy a single business operator.

Re: Sixteen U.S. states still ban community-owned broadband networks

#77

Post by adabyron »

tivert wrote: post #26

Linked from the OP: https://www.newamerica.org/weekly/how-did-north-dakota-becom... IIRC, North Dakota, despite its Republican voting record, is actually pretty socialist (including a few legitimately state-owned companies).

They also have a state owned bank. ND once had a very strong "Democratic Farmer Labor party". Not to get into R vs D here, as the parties have flip flopped a lot since then & the Limbaugh movement changed the state from a very purple state (all Congress members were D in the 80s-90s). The only way you win in the state now is with a R next to your name, so the Rs are having an identity crisis.

The real good call out is the coop attitude that has been very strong in ND for decades. Sadly I have seen some of those coops start to spend a lot of money on creating talk shows with extreme political personalities who have little actual knowledge on things.

I would love to see the state go back to being more neighborly & community building. Either way the history of the coop attitude is a great one for building strong communities. Every community should take notice of this.

For rural communities, especially in the early 90s & 00s, having internet access was equivalent to access to an elite private school.

Re: Sixteen U.S. states still ban community-owned broadband networks

#78

Post by londons_explore »

xnorswap wrote: post #68
wyldfire wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unimaginable in the US With good reason. Building codes in the US prevent disasters like the one that happened at Grenfell Towers in the UK. Run plenum-rated wires through an appropriate space for safety's sake.

UK building codes (we call them building regulations) should also have prevented Grenfell. A large issue was that the companies involved were using materials which weren't up to code.

Specifically, they stuck to the letter of the law, not the spirit of the law. (made an 'equivalent' fireproof product, which legally didn't need retesting, but in fact performed far worse)

Same with VW and dieselgate. (made a car which did well when tested, but badly in the real world)

The pattern is that complex regulations always have loopholes, when far better would be to wipe out all the regulations and simply put in prison people who don't take sufficient care of the environment or other peoples lives. Let courts decide what is insufficient care on a case by case basis.

Re: Sixteen U.S. states still ban community-owned broadband networks

#79

Post by astrodust »

hansvm wrote: post #29
varispeed wrote: post #11

[flagged]

When trying to convince a Russian engineer a few years ago that the west has plenty of corruption, his main counterpoint was "yes, but it's not the same; you guys have a kind of corruption that's at least able to function." He made a big deal about how severe it is even in very minor roles. With recent events I imagine the difference is going to decrease a bit, but I don't think it'll be the same within 4yrs.

Lawful evil versus chaotic evil.

Re: Sixteen U.S. states still ban community-owned broadband networks

#80

Post by eqvinox »

Community-owned _broadband networks_ I'm not sure about.

Community-owned _physical infrastructure_ (especially last-mile — fiber & copper going to everybody's house) … that needs to be the default.

And if it's not community-owned, it needs to be regulated with open access requirements.

Yes you can theoretically build a second fiber network and hook up people's houses. Yes it has happened in actual practice. But it is commercially questionable and just completely silly.

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