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BYD quarterly sales beat Tesla for first time

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Re: BYD quarterly sales beat Tesla for first time

#71

Post by echelon »

churchill wrote: post #59
echelon wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Only reason they wouldn't take off outside China is the astronomical tariffs the West are putting on Chinese cars (100% in the US). They're dumping domestic overproduction on foreign markets. You do that long enough and you can weaken your foreign competitors in their domestic strongholds. This can destroy high-value domestic jobs, lead to atrophy of expertise, and is especially bad to "strategic" sectors of the do…

Western cope never gets old. Western automakers had the chance to dominate international markets, but they stayed back at home, making overpriced cars for their captive audience of local buyers. Whenever competitors showed up, they laughed at them, before panicking when those upstarts starting challenging their market dominance. It happened with Japan, Korea, and now China. So, if you feel China competes unfairly, cl…

That is a vast oversimplification that discounts the incredible geopolitical changes over the past 40 years.

But at the end of the day, we're protecting our own interests.

Re: BYD quarterly sales beat Tesla for first time

#72

Post by linkgoron »

teruakohatu wrote: post #37
linkgoron wrote: post #23

I've been happily driving a BYD Atto 3 for ~6 months now. Very happy with it, its got a lot of nice software and hardware features, carplay/android auto works well, driving is nice and very smooth (especially on sport mode), and my daughter loves playing with the "strings" on the doors. The most glaring issue is the battery which is really its weakest part. Is it better than a Tesla? Probably not - there are clearly…

> The most glaring issue is the battery which is really its weakest part. What are the issues? I thought BYD batteries were as good as they get? I am pretty sure Teslas sold in my country (NZ) have BYD batteries.

Battery is fine by itself, but I'd say that the range is somewhere between 315-350km depending on terrain etc. Definitely not the 420km that's advertised. I knew this beforehand from reviews so it wasn't unexpected, but I'd be pretty angry if I didn't read about it from reviews before I got the car.

For me it's fine as I still only charge once a week and I still have around 70%-80% usually, unless I visit remote relatives. I could probably stretch and recharge every other week if I really wanted to, but I prefer to have it ready as we sometimes do have longer drives.

Re: BYD quarterly sales beat Tesla for first time

#73

Post by thefaux »

tivert wrote: post #58
ApolloFortyNine wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only reason they wouldn't take off outside China is the astronomical tariffs the West are putting on Chinese cars (100% in the US). Though depending on the wording, they may be able to just build a plant in Mexico and take advantage of NAFTA. I can't tell from the whitehouse post on the tariff if it's tied to country of the manufacturer or just country of origin (usually it's origin).

> Only reason they wouldn't take off outside China is the astronomical tariffs the West are putting on Chinese cars (100% in the US). Yeah, due to Chinese state subsidies and other assistance, China has a competitive advantage in automobile manufacturing as well as in many other areas. The US needs to show its commitment to free market principles and lets its auto industry die already.

That seems crazy to me unless we're prepared to rebuild our infrastructure to allow a majority of the populace to live car free. Otherwise completely eliminating our auto industry would be an enormous national security risk.

Re: BYD quarterly sales beat Tesla for first time

#74

Post by churchill »

echelon wrote: post #71
churchill wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Western cope never gets old. Western automakers had the chance to dominate international markets, but they stayed back at home, making overpriced cars for their captive audience of local buyers. Whenever competitors showed up, they laughed at them, before panicking when those upstarts starting challenging their market dominance. It happened with Japan, Korea, and now China. So, if you feel China competes unfairly, cl…

That is a vast oversimplification that discounts the incredible geopolitical changes over the past 40 years. But at the end of the day, we're protecting our own interests.

I understand - I'm not wishing evil on the West. I want prosperity for all humanity. All I'm saying is that it's shortsightedness and hubris that even got Western automakers (and businesses at large) to this stage. Rest on their laurels, not learning from history, assuming the good times will continue unabated.

Just like Jack Welch and General Electric: financialize companies to the max, optimize for quarterly share increases, and earn billion-dollar bonuses. When the company inevitably collapses/shrinks after you retire, it's no longer your business.

Whether it's China's foray into nuclear, wind power, carmaking, solar, etc., they simply copy existing Western designs and keep developing them diligently while the incumbents optimize for quarterly earnings.

Re: BYD quarterly sales beat Tesla for first time

#75

Post by Barrin92 »

tivert wrote: post #58
ApolloFortyNine wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only reason they wouldn't take off outside China is the astronomical tariffs the West are putting on Chinese cars (100% in the US). Though depending on the wording, they may be able to just build a plant in Mexico and take advantage of NAFTA. I can't tell from the whitehouse post on the tariff if it's tied to country of the manufacturer or just country of origin (usually it's origin).

> Only reason they wouldn't take off outside China is the astronomical tariffs the West are putting on Chinese cars (100% in the US). Yeah, due to Chinese state subsidies and other assistance, China has a competitive advantage in automobile manufacturing as well as in many other areas. The US needs to show its commitment to free market principles and lets its auto industry die already.

>The US needs to show its commitment to free market principles and lets its auto industry die already.

Given that the car industry here in Germany opposed the (even much more moderate) tariffs the state subsidies certainly don't seem to scare them more than a trade war. It's just a repeat of the automotive industry dark ages of the 70s/80s when tariffs vis-à-vis Japan were enacted based on the same reasoning. You're just gonna have 20 years of no competition.

China is going to win the markets in the rest of the world, which is where the bulk of cars go now. It's gonna be funny when everyone in Asia is driving a 15k modern electric car and we sit here driving old second hand gas cars behind a tariff wall. It's like a reverse Soviet Union situation

Re: BYD quarterly sales beat Tesla for first time

#76

Post by bryanlarsen »

amrocha wrote: post #39
polartx wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or if the build quality of their vehicles was not up to par with US regulation or the quality standards the US market is accustomed to..which seems very possible given the connotations generally shared domestically around the phrase “made in china”

Teslas have a reputation for shoddy quality but they’re still sold in the US, i’m sure BYD will be fine

Chinese made Tesla's are generally acknowledged to be higher quality than American Tesla's.

Re: BYD quarterly sales beat Tesla for first time

#77

Post by bluGill »

bhouston wrote: post #44
ApolloFortyNine wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only reason they wouldn't take off outside China is the astronomical tariffs the West are putting on Chinese cars (100% in the US). Though depending on the wording, they may be able to just build a plant in Mexico and take advantage of NAFTA. I can't tell from the whitehouse post on the tariff if it's tied to country of the manufacturer or just country of origin (usually it's origin).

> ...they may be able to just build a plant in Mexico and take advantage of NAFTA. If Trump is elected, expect then NAFTA to be changed to exclude competitors to Tesla in some fashion. There is already a lot of expectations that a Trump win will heavily benefit Elon: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/29/business/economy/elon-mus...

NAFTA doesn't exist anymore. Trump replaced it with a "I can't believe it isn't NAFTA", I doubt he will reopen that again.

Re: BYD quarterly sales beat Tesla for first time

#78

Post by fairity »

hangonhn wrote: post #21
fairity wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How significant are the production subsidies? Are they a meaningful percentage of sales revenue?

They're now mostly in the form of tax rebates and cheap loans these days. According to the Nikkei ( https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Datawatch/China-s-hidden-s... ) : "BYD received a total of 37.1 billion yuan in tax rebates over the five-year period, nearly four times the 9.3 billion yuan it received in subsidies. Additionally, BYD has secured long-term bank loans at interest rates between 2.05% and 2.98%, lower th…

Thanks for the information! So, if the subsidies are in the form of tax rebates and subsidized loans, is it safe to say, the full economic benefit of these subsidies as a percentage of vehicle sales revenue is single digits? If so, it seems like there's little reason to doubt that BYD would be immensely successful in the US without tarrifs.

Re: BYD quarterly sales beat Tesla for first time

#79

Post by basiccalendar74 »

adriancr wrote: post #56
teruakohatu wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The most glaring issue is the battery which is really its weakest part. What are the issues? I thought BYD batteries were as good as they get? I am pretty sure Teslas sold in my country (NZ) have BYD batteries.

> What are the issues? I thought BYD batteries were as good as they get? BYD atto 3 that OP mentioned: - 420km wltp range on 60 kwh battery. Tesla model 3 rwd: - 554km wltp with 18" wheels - on 56kwh battery. so tesla is much more efficient while cost difference isnt that much at least in europe. (41k vs 39k)

you are comparing a sedan and suv though. byd seal is a better comparison to model 3

Re: BYD quarterly sales beat Tesla for first time

#80

Post by bluGill »

Barrin92 wrote: post #75
tivert wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Only reason they wouldn't take off outside China is the astronomical tariffs the West are putting on Chinese cars (100% in the US). Yeah, due to Chinese state subsidies and other assistance, China has a competitive advantage in automobile manufacturing as well as in many other areas. The US needs to show its commitment to free market principles and lets its auto industry die already.

>The US needs to show its commitment to free market principles and lets its auto industry die already. Given that the car industry here in Germany opposed the (even much more moderate) tariffs the state subsidies certainly don't seem to scare them more than a trade war. It's just a repeat of the automotive industry dark ages of the 70s/80s when tariffs vis-à-vis Japan were enacted based on the same reasoning. You're…

15 years ago China was opening up and looking to become more free over time. As such I would oppose any tariffs in the belief that drawing them closer to us is for the better. However now that Xi is in power he has been doing everything to oppose US (and EU, Japan, Taiwan, Vietnam...) interests and so I'm forced to support tariffs. In principal I favor free trade, but when I expect war with someone else I can't support them or allow them to get control of things we will need to fight that war.
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