Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Steve Jobs on Average vs Best Software Developers

benlakey.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

71–80 of 130 posts

Re: Steve Jobs on Average vs Best Software Developers

#71

Post by greggman »

Video Game artists are 50 to 1, best to average. I've worked with 4-5 of best and 50-100 of the average. The best are prolific, get stuff done on or ahead of time and follow every technical detail required. They are technical enough to know what's needed to accomplish a given goal without needing to be hand held. Whether it's thinking through all the tiles need for a tile based 3/4 perspective game for making something beautiful with a limited polygon and/or texture budget.

They really do get way more done than the average artist. Unfortunately there just aren't enough of them so we do the best we can to help the average ones be as productive as possible and keep hoping to find more of the amazing ones.

Re: Steve Jobs on Average vs Best Software Developers

#72

Post by benlakey »

chrischen wrote: post #57
benlakey wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're implying that what's being discussed is a zero sum problem. We're simply saying that 'A' players work best with 'A' players, and if you fight for that in your organization then you'll do great things. 'B' and 'C' players will still exist, absolutely, but you'd do well to avoid them when possible.

I think theoretically we cannot achieve a state where all players are A. If that happens, our standards would be raised so that there will be a new class of B and C players that used to be A players. The only way for everyone to be A is for everyone to be the same, and in that scenario the classifiers would be meaningless. This all of course assumes that all humans are created with the same innate potentials, which i…

That's not what I'm suggesting at all actually. Again, you're implying this is a zero sum game, in which the world has nothing but 'A' players. Thats not what I've said.

Being a 'hard worker' is completely and totally irrelevant in software development. More input does not equal better output, which in software is the key.

Re: Steve Jobs on Average vs Best Software Developers

#73

Post by jasonkester »

TimGebhardt wrote: post #39
oacgnol wrote: post #13

A bit of a meta question: As someone who feels like a 'B' or even 'C' at times, what would it take to become an 'A' player? Is it predicated on pure talent alone, hard work, or experience? Even though I know I'm still a junior developer (~1 yr exp), I feel hopeless at times that I'll never approach being 'A' status especially knowing that I have many peers my age that are already far and away better than me. How woul…

Fake it 'til you make it. Throw yourself at problems that you think are over your head. If you care and you want to do good work you'll figure out a way to get something done. Especially if you have a good mentor or someone that can guide you to answers to hard questions or take you under their wing. Learn to effectively communicate and then communicate with your peers. You'll never know what you don't know unless yo…

Are you sure "fake it til you make it" is the correct term for this idea? I'm familiar with the term, but usually in a different context.

Regardless, you're spot on.

My silly anecdote: Back in university I used to play pick-up two's volleyball a couple nights a week. At the other end of that same gym, the school team would practice, occasionally overlapping with the pick-up folks.

One day, their practice broke up around the same time as a game of sixes ended, so me & my partner wandered down and challenged a couple of the Team guys to a game of twos. It was quite memorable. 15-1, if I recall, and really not even that close. Pretty humbling, since we could certainly hang against anybody else we'd played up to that point.

But we stuck at it. Over the next couple months, we'd ask for games off those guys from time to time. 15-4. 15-8. 15-7. Then one day we lost 15-12. Fifteen to Twelve. Against a guy with a four foot vertical leap and a guy with one of those crazy olympic jump serves. Guys who were having their tuition paid for playing this sport. Wow.

And it's not like we went back and proceeded to dominate from there on out. Sure, we were better, but not that much better. We were better when we were playing better players. We were only playing that well because we were playing up to their level. It was quite a thing to see.

I've seen this same thing again and again over the years, particularly with Rock Climbing, where a group of people can attack a boulder problem that's way over any one of their abilities, and eventually get not just one guy over the top, but everybody, because of the group energy.

I can't see why it wouldn't be the same with programming.

Re: Steve Jobs on Average vs Best Software Developers

#74

Post by rizzom5000 »

mkramlich wrote: post #68

Considering this is a man who's built one of the world's most successful computer software and hardware companies, I think it's safe to say he knows whereof he speaks. And we can put this question to rest. And I think the exact number or ratio is not important, and probably not measureable. But I bet anyone who's been around long enough, exposed to wide enough variety of programmers, will agree that there is a wide r…

I admire and respect Steve Jobs as a businessman. I don't admire and respect him as an engineer, and certainly don't admire and respect him as a scientist. The differences are subtle and staggering all at once.

I disagree that the question can be put to rest. Your logic follows from a fallacy known as 'Argument from Authority' or 'argumentum ad verecundiam'.

I understand that the comments on this board are derived from a wide variety of individuals, where there is a wide range of skill and talent. I completely agree with your 2nd paragraph.

Re: Steve Jobs on Average vs Best Software Developers

#76

Post by eren_bali »

oacgnol wrote: post #13

A bit of a meta question: As someone who feels like a 'B' or even 'C' at times, what would it take to become an 'A' player? Is it predicated on pure talent alone, hard work, or experience? Even though I know I'm still a junior developer (~1 yr exp), I feel hopeless at times that I'll never approach being 'A' status especially knowing that I have many peers my age that are already far and away better than me. How woul…

The best way of becoming an 'A' player it to work closely with some of them. Accept a lower salary to be able to do that if necessary.

If you feel like some of your peers are ahead of you, you can try diversifying your skills. Most other 'A' developers suck at things like UX, design or even basic human interaction. Surpass them on those areas. By being a B as a developer + B as a UX person + getting things done, you will be welcome in an all A's team.

Re: Steve Jobs on Average vs Best Software Developers

#77

Post by thomasjoulin »

I've been a developer for more than five years now, and I met a lot of brillant people that are more than a 100 times better than me. I also saw code and people that are so bad that I would qualify as a A player... Compared to them. I'm probably more than a 100 times better than them. So in my opinion, in software development, there is a much wider range than 100:1, and if you feel like you're an 'A' player, you're probably overestimating yourself. Likewise, if you feel you're a 'C' player and are worried about it, don't worry too much, go on StackOverflow, answer question, learn to get better, and be confident that maybe you're not an 'A' player, but you're pretty good and will be a 100 times better by next year.

Re: Steve Jobs on Average vs Best Software Developers

#78

Post by lollancf37 »

What amazed in those kind of post, is that people who actually work in the industry are not bother by the actual lack of evidence in those kind of claim. I respect the opinion of Ben Lakey and Steve Jobs but they are opinions not laws.

I mean seriously, regardless of the job or the level of awesomness of someone, who likes to work with incompetent collegues ?????

They are thousands of bad developpers out there ? Seriously ? How do you judge ?? How do you know ??

Personally I know tons of developpers who works on awesome things at home but do shit at work 365 days a year. Simply because that is what is required of them. Careful here, I am not saying that, this is the case for everyone and that I have explained everything. I'm just saying that it will be nice if in our industry we stopped putting so much ego in everything we are doing. If you are a A, A+, A++, S++X37 developper good for you, truly.

From my little experience ( ~= 5 years ) there is not much state of the art project going on in the industry. Most project sucks from a technical point of view.

Also from my little experience, recruitment is fucking hard. Ask Google.

Re: Steve Jobs on Average vs Best Software Developers

#79

Post by lollancf37 »

lollancf37 wrote: post #78

What amazed in those kind of post, is that people who actually work in the industry are not bother by the actual lack of evidence in those kind of claim. I respect the opinion of Ben Lakey and Steve Jobs but they are opinions not laws. I mean seriously, regardless of the job or the level of awesomness of someone, who likes to work with incompetent collegues ????? They are thousands of bad developpers out there ? Seri…

You'll notice that I didn't talk about managment and the value that companies put (or don't put) in IT ...
Post reply on HN