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Landowner Sues After State Searches Property Without Warrant or Consent

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Re: Landowner Sues After State Searches Property Without Warrant or Consent

#71

Post by danaris »

monero-xmr wrote: post #39
Suppafly wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not a fan of vouchers in general, especially if they allow public funds to go to religious institutions, but educational choice (as IJ terms it) is a tricky area. A lot of times these programs allow people to move between public schools or get additional funds for alternative programs that better suit their children's needs.

Even the head of the Chicago Teachers Union sends her kid to Catholic school, because the quality of the system she runs is appalling https://abc7chicago.com/stacy-davis-gates-private-school-ctu... Maybe giving money so more kids can attend Catholic schools is a good thing

All that does is abandon the kids who don't get that money to a poor education.

No; the very very obvious "good thing" here would be to fix the Chicago public school system, whatever that entails. (And yes, I know that's guaranteed to be politically and logistically more difficult than just diverting more taxpayer money to private schools, but it's still the right thing to do.)

Re: Landowner Sues After State Searches Property Without Warrant or Consent

#72

Post by danaris »

busterarm wrote: post #27
crooked-v wrote: post #5

I'm badly split on Institute for Justice, the nonprofit backing this suit. On the one hand, they aggressively advocate for obvious constitutional rights cases like this one and have put a lot of effort into fighting legally-accepted-yet-fundamentally-nonsensical practices like civil forfeiture. On the other, they also aggressively support school vouchers, which are mostly a scheme to drain money from public schools i…

So you're saying you don't want parents to have the choice to send their children to better performing schools and provide better opportunities for their children? Or are you saying that should only be a privilege of the rich? Having gone to both public and private schools, while I had horrible experiences with both, at least there was teaching going on in my private schools. My public school experience was horrific,…

> Or are you saying that should only be a privilege of the rich?

No: I don't think anyone should have the option of private schools.

Yes, I think public education should be mandatory in the US. That way, when there are problems with the public school system in a given area, rather than just pulling their own children—and money—out, the rich people would be personally incentivized to find ways to make it better for everyone.

Re: Landowner Sues After State Searches Property Without Warrant or Consent

#73

Post by busterarm »

danaris wrote: post #72
busterarm wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you're saying you don't want parents to have the choice to send their children to better performing schools and provide better opportunities for their children? Or are you saying that should only be a privilege of the rich? Having gone to both public and private schools, while I had horrible experiences with both, at least there was teaching going on in my private schools. My public school experience was horrific,…

> Or are you saying that should only be a privilege of the rich? No: I don't think anyone should have the option of private schools. Yes, I think public education should be mandatory in the US. That way, when there are problems with the public school system in a given area, rather than just pulling their own children—and money—out, the rich people would be personally incentivized to find ways to make it better for ev…

One of the things that I am most thankful for as am American is that we're not living in an authoritarian hellhole where the state-offered solution is the only solution.

As a kid my option was to be forcibly medicated by some random tyrant bureaucrat or not be allowed to attend school. I had no disorder or diagnosis that required this. Luckily I was able to escape to private school.

More importantly, children are not one-size-fits-all in terms of learning requirements or ability, but public schools only provide one-size-fits-all opportunity.

Re: Landowner Sues After State Searches Property Without Warrant or Consent

#74

Post by plorkyeran »

busterarm wrote: post #27
crooked-v wrote: post #5

I'm badly split on Institute for Justice, the nonprofit backing this suit. On the one hand, they aggressively advocate for obvious constitutional rights cases like this one and have put a lot of effort into fighting legally-accepted-yet-fundamentally-nonsensical practices like civil forfeiture. On the other, they also aggressively support school vouchers, which are mostly a scheme to drain money from public schools i…

So you're saying you don't want parents to have the choice to send their children to better performing schools and provide better opportunities for their children? Or are you saying that should only be a privilege of the rich? Having gone to both public and private schools, while I had horrible experiences with both, at least there was teaching going on in my private schools. My public school experience was horrific,…

It only being a privilege of the rich is precisely the problem with school vouchers. Vouchers don't let poor students go to good private schools; they let good private schools charge more because the state is subsidizing part of the tuition.

Re: Landowner Sues After State Searches Property Without Warrant or Consent

#75

Post by s1artibartfast »

crooked-v wrote: post #5

I'm badly split on Institute for Justice, the nonprofit backing this suit. On the one hand, they aggressively advocate for obvious constitutional rights cases like this one and have put a lot of effort into fighting legally-accepted-yet-fundamentally-nonsensical practices like civil forfeiture. On the other, they also aggressively support school vouchers, which are mostly a scheme to drain money from public schools i…

Im a huge fan of constitutional rights and school vouchers, so I should look into them.

If public schools are less desirable, we should celebrate that the money is going elsewhere.

Re: Landowner Sues After State Searches Property Without Warrant or Consent

#76

Post by busterarm »

plorkyeran wrote: post #74
busterarm wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you're saying you don't want parents to have the choice to send their children to better performing schools and provide better opportunities for their children? Or are you saying that should only be a privilege of the rich? Having gone to both public and private schools, while I had horrible experiences with both, at least there was teaching going on in my private schools. My public school experience was horrific,…

It only being a privilege of the rich is precisely the problem with school vouchers. Vouchers don't let poor students go to good private schools; they let good private schools charge more because the state is subsidizing part of the tuition.

I grew up certified poor (rent control, foodstamps, hand me down clothes, donation program christmas gifts, the works) and was able to attend elite private schools because of programs like this.

Grew up with plenty of other poor kids going to those schools too.

Re: Landowner Sues After State Searches Property Without Warrant or Consent

#77

Post by s1artibartfast »

riskable wrote: post #53
crisdux wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why shouldn't finds go to religious institutions? I lived in a western country that allows public funding for religious schools, which I attended while growing up. The schools are still fulfilling a public need of educating students. Is it because they are religious?

It's quite simple, really: The government shouldn't be giving money to religious institutions because that would be, "respecting an establishment of religion". You could argue that the 1st Amendment only applies to laws written by Congress and not the whims of state governments but the Supreme Court has ruled in the past that it does extend downwards like that. Then again, the Supreme Court also ruled that if a state…

Seems to be stretching the separation of church and state.

As long as the schools meet certification and minimum curriculum, I dont see how it is different than the city buying concrete from a religious vendor.

Re: Landowner Sues After State Searches Property Without Warrant or Consent

#78

Post by 0xEF »

barryrandall wrote: post #65
0xEF wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not getting the impression from the article that wildlife officers, a whole group of people, are running roughshod over the US Constitution.

If the power isn't being widely abused, then updating the law to better respect private property rights shouldn't be a problem. The state may actually gain some small amount of goodwill from the electorate by agreeing with the plaintiff.

Sure. Now let's turn that same energy on cops that regularly violate US Constitutional rights of their victims.

Re: Landowner Sues After State Searches Property Without Warrant or Consent

#79

Post by frumper »

busterarm wrote: post #66
eesmith wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should my tax dollars go to have your kids attend a non-public school, rather than the ones needing oxygen at a public one?

It's the same tax dollars. It's paying for kids to go to school. That's a public good. You want society to do this. Why should your tax dollars only go to schools controlled by the state? Do you care that public schools in the US typically have worse outcomes and have to spend more per child to get there?

OP seems to be saying if the non state controlled schools follow the rules as state schools then that is fine, but they currently don't. Not many private schools provide special education services for one.

Re: Landowner Sues After State Searches Property Without Warrant or Consent

#80

Post by abenga »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #77
riskable wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's quite simple, really: The government shouldn't be giving money to religious institutions because that would be, "respecting an establishment of religion". You could argue that the 1st Amendment only applies to laws written by Congress and not the whims of state governments but the Supreme Court has ruled in the past that it does extend downwards like that. Then again, the Supreme Court also ruled that if a state…

Seems to be stretching the separation of church and state. As long as the schools meet certification and minimum curriculum, I dont see how it is different than the city buying concrete from a religious vendor.

> I dont see how it is different than the city buying concrete from a religious vendor.

It is not expected that the religious vendor will try to teach religion to every person who uses the structure built by the concrete the government pays for in your example.

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