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Rust needs a web framework

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Re: Rust needs a web framework

#71

Post by ActorNightly »

creatonez wrote: post #57
wongarsu wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is definetly something the article should have drilled down on. Why Rust? I'm sure everyone's tired of hearing why rust is an excellent alternative to c/c++ for new projects, but as an alternative against Python it gets muddier. Rust has a clear advantage in performance and memory footprint and a much better multithreading story, but those are things that aren't high priorities for 95% of web development. That b…

The answer for why folks are so inclined towards doing high-level tasks in Rust... is the type system. Its sensibilities are in a sweet spot that makes it very easy to pull off huge refactors. It was also a lot of people's first introduction to algebraic data types being used in nearly all error handling (its usage of `Result where E implements Error` and lack of nulls or exceptions). It makes a lot of progress towar…

Typing in modern days is effectively moving the task of debugging to compile/ide annotations process instead of testing for correctness.

Albeit it makes the process easier compared to a really shittly written code without strict typing, but against good codebases, it takes the same amount of time.

Re: Rust needs a web framework

#72

Post by elcritch »

wongarsu wrote: post #24
devjab wrote: post #10

> I like to make silly things, and I also like to put in minimal effort for those silly things. I also like to make things in Rust… I think this part is perhaps the silliest part of a very silly article. If you really like to put in a minimal effort then why on earth would you use Rust? If you want efficiency, memory management and a compiled modern language just use Go. Then you won’t even need anything but the stan…

This is definetly something the article should have drilled down on. Why Rust? I'm sure everyone's tired of hearing why rust is an excellent alternative to c/c++ for new projects, but as an alternative against Python it gets muddier. Rust has a clear advantage in performance and memory footprint and a much better multithreading story, but those are things that aren't high priorities for 95% of web development. That b…

> and if we pretend we can't hear the Haskell developers it's one of the best type systems out there

Eh, Rust's type system isn't one of the best out there. It's lacking higher kinded types, etc. It's abilities in type level programming are frustratingly limited as well.

So it's advanced aside from from Haskell, OCaml, Idris, Scala, etc. Compare to OCaml's effect system for an advanced type system feature.

Re: Rust needs a web framework

#73

Post by creatonez »

kortilla wrote: post #69
creatonez wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The answer for why folks are so inclined towards doing high-level tasks in Rust... is the type system. Its sensibilities are in a sweet spot that makes it very easy to pull off huge refactors. It was also a lot of people's first introduction to algebraic data types being used in nearly all error handling (its usage of `Result where E implements Error` and lack of nulls or exceptions). It makes a lot of progress towar…

>Result where E implements Error` and lack of nulls or exceptions This all goes out the window when people throw “unwrap” all over the place because “this should always succeed”.

Rust does not skirt around the fundamentals. You can still handle errors however you want, you can still blast side effects all over the place, and you still have to uphold an arbitrary set of invariants specific to the task at hand. But the ecosystem as a whole is filled with things being done the right way because the language and its linters have always been quite helpful.

Re: Rust needs a web framework

#74

Post by brendamn »

paulgb wrote: post #25
devjab wrote: post #10

> I like to make silly things, and I also like to put in minimal effort for those silly things. I also like to make things in Rust… I think this part is perhaps the silliest part of a very silly article. If you really like to put in a minimal effort then why on earth would you use Rust? If you want efficiency, memory management and a compiled modern language just use Go. Then you won’t even need anything but the stan…

The author is clearly building things for the joy of it. If she gets the most joy from Rust, that's what she should use! > See, if I want to make something for the web, I could use Django but I don't want that. I mean, Django is for building serious businesses, not for building silly non-commercial things! Personally, I spent the first decade of my career switching between languages, believing that I should use the b…

> If she gets the most joy from Rust, that's what she should use!

In the past I’d try to justify why I’d done something a certain way when another way would’ve been faster / better / cheaper, but I now realise that (at least for personal pursuits) an acceptable answer to “why?” is simply “because I wanted to”.

Re: Rust needs a web framework

#75

Post by oguz-ismail »

paulgb wrote: post #25
devjab wrote: post #10

> I like to make silly things, and I also like to put in minimal effort for those silly things. I also like to make things in Rust… I think this part is perhaps the silliest part of a very silly article. If you really like to put in a minimal effort then why on earth would you use Rust? If you want efficiency, memory management and a compiled modern language just use Go. Then you won’t even need anything but the stan…

The author is clearly building things for the joy of it. If she gets the most joy from Rust, that's what she should use! > See, if I want to make something for the web, I could use Django but I don't want that. I mean, Django is for building serious businesses, not for building silly non-commercial things! Personally, I spent the first decade of my career switching between languages, believing that I should use the b…

[flagged]

Re: Rust needs a web framework

#76

Post by erlend_sh »

dartos wrote: post #2

Isn’t there a rust rails clone? Yeah, it’s called loco https://loco.rs/ FWIW I prefer the pile of libraries. Big frameworks are good for scrappy startups trying to push their product out asap, but in most of situations, I’d like a lower abstraction system to build on.

This needs to be higher up. Loco seems to be exactly what OP is looking for, yet it wasn’t mentioned in the article.

Re: Rust needs a web framework

#77

Post by hinkley »

lovethevoid wrote: post #39
phoronixrly wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What kind of logic is this... The Rust language is quite rigorous, so web frameworks on it should also be equally laborious to work with? You have to roll your own authentication, you have to do your own routing, you have to do ad-hoc string manipulation instead of templates?... The person likes writing in Rust, and would like to have a batteries-included web framework so they can tie together a web app quickly on th…

If you find the language rigorous, a web framework can't magically do away with that. It's genuinely illogical to believe so. There are plenty of web frameworks on Rust that are quite nice to use, but they are still Rust, with all its shortcomings in the same way Django is still Python with all its shortcomings. What you're asking for is a DSL built on top of Rust for the purpose of creating web apps.

Counter example: stringly typed code can be written anywhere.

Re: Rust needs a web framework

#78

Post by angra_mainyu »

echelon wrote: post #46
PedroBatista wrote: post #42

Possible unpopular opinion: Rust is a systems language, doing "web work" in Rust is a waste of effort as there are much better languages and ecosystems for that.

Counter-point: developing web services in Rust is just as easy as doing it in Go or Java, yet you now have an excellent type system (sum types!), an excellent package manager, and extremely good performance. You can do dependency injection in Rust to share connection pools just like you would in Java, and it's super simple to write threaded background tasks. Google gave a talk recently that said they measured Rust de…

The developers they measured, were they using the languages for the exact same tasks?

Otherwise it's just stating that they assign the languages to categories of problems they are equally efficient in.

Re: Rust needs a web framework

#79

Post by throw10920 »

creatonez wrote: post #57
wongarsu wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is definetly something the article should have drilled down on. Why Rust? I'm sure everyone's tired of hearing why rust is an excellent alternative to c/c++ for new projects, but as an alternative against Python it gets muddier. Rust has a clear advantage in performance and memory footprint and a much better multithreading story, but those are things that aren't high priorities for 95% of web development. That b…

The answer for why folks are so inclined towards doing high-level tasks in Rust... is the type system. Its sensibilities are in a sweet spot that makes it very easy to pull off huge refactors. It was also a lot of people's first introduction to algebraic data types being used in nearly all error handling (its usage of `Result where E implements Error` and lack of nulls or exceptions). It makes a lot of progress towar…

> The answer for why folks are so inclined towards doing high-level tasks in Rust... is the type system.

TypeScript has an equally powerful type system.

Python's type system is almost as good.

Both have are significantly more productive when it comes to writing software, and have bigger ecosystems and lower learning curves.

> It makes a lot of progress towards the goal of "make invalid states unrepresentable", which could be really useful for web apps.

TypeScript and Elm are both good at this while being useful for web development today.

Re: Rust needs a web framework

#80

Post by angra_mainyu »

gcau wrote: post #63
devjab wrote: post #10

> I like to make silly things, and I also like to put in minimal effort for those silly things. I also like to make things in Rust… I think this part is perhaps the silliest part of a very silly article. If you really like to put in a minimal effort then why on earth would you use Rust? If you want efficiency, memory management and a compiled modern language just use Go. Then you won’t even need anything but the stan…

Rust has benefits besides just memory safety and being efficient, it has great language design and a great toolchain. I chose (learning) rust over golang for quite simple projects with no performance requirements, out of sheer frustration with the toolchain/design of go, golang came off to me as "let's try to be special and make bizarre design decisions" which made it confusing to learn, not only that but I very quic…

Zig is an excellent middle ground though it doesn't hit the maturity spot - I keep on having to update build.zig with most releases.

That said, what exactly was the issue you had with Go?

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