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Incident: Wordpress.org has blocked WP Engine customers from registry

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Re: Incident: Wordpress.org has blocked WP Engine customers from registry

#71

Post by cr125rider »

Ukv wrote: post #43
pooper wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question still stands though. Why does wp engine get to infringe on WordPress trademark AND get access to server resources for free?

WordPress's trademark policy[0] explicitly said: > The abbreviation “WP” is not covered by the WordPress trademarks and you are free to use it in any way you see fit. and > Similarly, a business related to WordPress themes can describe itself as “XYZ Themes, the world’s best WordPress themes,” but cannot call itself “The WordPress Theme Portal.” [0]: https://web.archive.org/web/20240901224354/https://wordpress...

That makes this seem pretty cut and dry…

Re: Incident: Wordpress.org has blocked WP Engine customers from registry

#72

Post by Ukv »

bmelton wrote: post #66
notpushkin wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Contribute to the ecosystem they’re feeding off? (If they already do, they could claim so, but as far as I know they didn’t; and there are claims from WPE employees that they are even explicitly prohibited from contributing any open source code.) Not that Matt’s behaviour is any better, but I do see his point here.

I've seen conflicting claims made. Everything from "WPEngine gives nothing" to (in this thread) "WPEngine sponsors a dozen developers" [1] I do not use either Wordpress nor WPEngine, so I don't have any stake in this nor insight into the dispute. [1] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41656542

> I've seen conflicting claims made. Everything from "WPEngine gives nothing" to (in this thread) "WPEngine sponsors a dozen developers" [1]

To at least partially back up my claim linked for the latter, WP Engine is part of WordPress.org's "Five for the Future" program, stating "This organization contributes 5% of their resources to the WordPress project" and listing developers they sponsor: https://web.archive.org/web/20240524210250/https://wordpress...

Their own open-source projects can be found on GitHub, like FaustJS: https://github.com/wpengine/faustjs

The primary events they sponsor are, to my understanding, WordCamps and DE{CODE}.

Re: Incident: Wordpress.org has blocked WP Engine customers from registry

#73

Post by TiredOfLife »

snatchpiesinger wrote: post #19

I wonder what the fallout of this will be. If this results in a successful fork of wordpress with a registry independent from Wordpress.org that would be quite ironic.

If WP Engine is not capable to contribute to WP development, how do you imagine they will ne able to support a fork?

Re: Incident: Wordpress.org has blocked WP Engine customers from registry

#74

Post by Ukv »

batuhanicoz wrote: post #69
SturgeonsLaw wrote: post #23

Has WP Engine actually done anything wrong? Wordpress is released under GPLv2 which allows modification and commercial use. I don't see the justification for Automattic demanding royalties.

Using WordPress the software is totally free, in both senses of the word. Using the WordPress and WooCommerce trademarks outside of fair use is not. Disclaimer: I work at Automattic.

The WordPress Foundation's trademark policy[0] seemed fairly clear that:

> The abbreviation “WP” is not covered by the WordPress trademarks and you are free to use it in any way you see fit.

and

> a business related to WordPress themes can describe itself as “XYZ Themes, the world’s best WordPress themes,” but cannot call itself “The WordPress Theme Portal.”

To me it looks like a conflict of interests that Matt's using his role as the director of the non-profit to try to make a competitor pay his for-profit business (which it's worth disclosing that you are an employee of, edit: now disclosed) tens of millions of dollars.

Particuarly since WP Engine do already seem to contribute to the WordPress project/community/non-profit side, through events/sponsorships/open-source contributions. Even WordPress.org states "This organization contributes 5% of their resources to the WordPress project" under their "Five for the Future" program[1].

[0]: https://web.archive.org/web/20240901224354/https://wordpress...

[1]: https://web.archive.org/web/20240524210250/https://wordpress...

Re: Incident: Wordpress.org has blocked WP Engine customers from registry

#75

Post by batuhanicoz »

Ukv wrote: post #74
batuhanicoz wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Using WordPress the software is totally free, in both senses of the word. Using the WordPress and WooCommerce trademarks outside of fair use is not. Disclaimer: I work at Automattic.

The WordPress Foundation's trademark policy[0] seemed fairly clear that: > The abbreviation “WP” is not covered by the WordPress trademarks and you are free to use it in any way you see fit. and > a business related to WordPress themes can describe itself as “XYZ Themes, the world’s best WordPress themes,” but cannot call itself “The WordPress Theme Portal.” To me it looks like a conflict of interests that Matt's usi…

I am an employee of Automattic, that's correct and public.

The problem is not the "WP" in their name but their specific usage of "WordPress" and "WooCommerce" on their website and marketing. You don't have to literally use the trademarked in your brand name for infringement. Legal threshold, AFAIK, is around 15% of the people thinking you are officially related to the owner or the licensees of the trademark.

https://automattic.com/2024/09/25/open-source-trademarks-wp-...

Re: Incident: Wordpress.org has blocked WP Engine customers from registry

#76

Post by Deukhoofd »

batuhanicoz wrote: post #70
notpushkin wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> did WPEngine make a threat to fork the project? WP/Matt’s actions would only make them fork faster, no?

If WP Engine wanted to dedicate resources to build on the code they are using, they would've contributed more to the core itself. Instead of forking, they could channel their resources to give back and that would be a good step to resolve this. Disclaimer: I work at Automattic.

You might want to add a disclaimer that you work at Automattic.

Re: Incident: Wordpress.org has blocked WP Engine customers from registry

#77

Post by batuhanicoz »

Deukhoofd wrote: post #76
batuhanicoz wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If WP Engine wanted to dedicate resources to build on the code they are using, they would've contributed more to the core itself. Instead of forking, they could channel their resources to give back and that would be a good step to resolve this. Disclaimer: I work at Automattic.

You might want to add a disclaimer that you work at Automattic.

Most of my other comments I was speaking in first person, in others I did not initially realize it wasn't as clear in some of them.

I also updated my bio here to reflect the product I am working for belongs to Automattic. Previously, it only mentioned the product which not everyone has to know belongs to Automattic.

Re: Incident: Wordpress.org has blocked WP Engine customers from registry

#78

Post by Ukv »

batuhanicoz wrote: post #75
Ukv wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The WordPress Foundation's trademark policy[0] seemed fairly clear that: > The abbreviation “WP” is not covered by the WordPress trademarks and you are free to use it in any way you see fit. and > a business related to WordPress themes can describe itself as “XYZ Themes, the world’s best WordPress themes,” but cannot call itself “The WordPress Theme Portal.” To me it looks like a conflict of interests that Matt's usi…

I am an employee of Automattic, that's correct and public. The problem is not the "WP" in their name but their specific usage of "WordPress" and "WooCommerce" on their website and marketing. You don't have to literally use the trademarked in your brand name for infringement. Legal threshold, AFAIK, is around 15% of the people thinking you are officially related to the owner or the licensees of the trademark. https://…

The supposedly infringing quotes from WP Engine in Automattic's "Exhibit B" ("Increase website speed with the fastest WordPress hosting", etc.) are extraordinarily similar to what the Wordpress Foundation's trademark policy explicitly permits ("the world’s best WordPress themes") - and would be nominative use even if that were not the case.

Re: Incident: Wordpress.org has blocked WP Engine customers from registry

#79

Post by Terretta »

raverbashing wrote: post #50

Matt needs to calm down, talk to their lawyers and keep the ego in check Yes you released WP as GPL or whatever, you'll get competitors like WP Engine. Sure, it's your prerogative to block access to plugins, but that won't win you any points, quite the contrary. And now there's a reason for WPE to come up with a competing store

> Matt needs to calm down ...

... means, "this seems more important to Matt than it does to me" and "he should just accept it shouldn't matter to him any more than it does to me".

Which, when paraphrased, explains why the comment tends to further provoke those who are passionate about something dear to them.

Often it's dear, and they are uncalm, because it came from them or is part of them in some way. That's the anti-calm appealed to by "think of the children", an inciting phrase. We're to recognize that our creations are worth our care.

Put another way: not all indignation is unrighteous.

Re: Incident: Wordpress.org has blocked WP Engine customers from registry

#80

Post by bmelton »

Ukv wrote: post #72
bmelton wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen conflicting claims made. Everything from "WPEngine gives nothing" to (in this thread) "WPEngine sponsors a dozen developers" [1] I do not use either Wordpress nor WPEngine, so I don't have any stake in this nor insight into the dispute. [1] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41656542

> I've seen conflicting claims made. Everything from "WPEngine gives nothing" to (in this thread) "WPEngine sponsors a dozen developers" [1] To at least partially back up my claim linked for the latter, WP Engine is part of WordPress.org's "Five for the Future" program, stating "This organization contributes 5% of their resources to the WordPress project" and listing developers they sponsor: https://web.archive.org/w…

Thanks. Another counter-claim I've seen to this is that WPEngine used to provide developers and sponsor events, but no longer do.

Any insights there?

Not trying to come across as interrogating or particularly concerned with the answer, but the whole thing is a curiosity.

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