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Europe to End "Salary Secrecy": Employee Salaries to Become Public by 2026

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Re: Europe to End "Salary Secrecy": Employee Salaries to Become Public by 2026

#71

Post by mewpmewp2 »

hexo wrote: post #35
School-Cotton wrote: post #22

How will this work with VC-backed startup where a large chunk of compensation is options of unknown value?

it is not of unknown value. in fact, they are valued as you have to pay taxes from it

I'm from Europe. I don't have to pay taxes from RSUs before I have actually sold the stock, even if it's vested and neither do I have to pay any taxes on options until I have made actual profit from them.

But yes, I do wonder if it will direct a lot of negotiations into the more "benefits" section of the thing.

Re: Europe to End "Salary Secrecy": Employee Salaries to Become Public by 2026

#72

Post by pdonis »

diggan wrote: post #53
jimbob45 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having a range at all greatly reduces individual bargaining power. My understanding is that the EU has had a terrible time recently attracting and retaining both businesses and talent. I don't see how this will help solve their issue.

How does more information reduce the bargaining power for potential employees? In my mind its the opposite, but maybe I miss something obvious?

If the company is committed by law to honoring a published salary range, it can't make a private exception for you even if you can show them that you bring more value to the table. That reduces your bargaining power.

Re: Europe to End "Salary Secrecy": Employee Salaries to Become Public by 2026

#73

Post by mewpmewp2 »

mkl95 wrote: post #47

EU companies often post salary ranges but they are often something ridiculous like 50-100K EUR, which makes this law potentially useless unless it also enforces companies to post their actual ranges.

But also different people can have very different effectiveness and productivity even at a same role, it can be a huge multiplying difference. How would you handle that aspect fairly?

Re: Europe to End "Salary Secrecy": Employee Salaries to Become Public by 2026

#74

Post by pdonis »

surgical_fire wrote: post #70
jppope wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Other companies know easily what their competitors are paying... you can't leverage labor market competition to bump your salary. You can't start a bidding war between employers.

Let's pretend companies don't collude to suppress salaries. Of course, this would never happen. In capitalism, fair competition is a given.

> companies don't collude to suppress salaries

If companies treat employees as commodities, which is largely the case, they don't have to collude to suppress salaries. The basic economics of commodities is enough.

The only way for employees to really have any bargaining power is to not be commodities; but trying to do that as employees is swimming against a strong economic current, because companies who can't treat their employees as commodities are in a more precarious business position than companies that can.

In other words, if you really think you're being underpaid as an employee compared to the value you create, your best option is to stop being an employee and become an owner of a company. And as an owner, if you are going to have any employees, you are going to end up under strong business pressure to treat them as commodities, so if you don't want to do that, your best option is to not have any employees in the first place: the owners either do the work themselves or outsource it to the owners of other companies with contracts.

Re: Europe to End "Salary Secrecy": Employee Salaries to Become Public by 2026

#75

Post by mewpmewp2 »

marzipanWhale wrote: post #45
JohnFen wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To avoid the social consequences amongst your peers? Perhaps that's not an issue in Norway, but it's an issue in the US. I don't want my coworkers to know how much I make because if I'm making substantially more or less than them, it will affect how they perceive and interact with me.

Norwegian here. This isn't really an issue, as far as I can tell. I feel in general most people get paid fairly, so if you're doing the same work as someone else the pay won't be that different. I've always shared and talked salary with my coworkers, both when I was earning the least and the most of my coworkers. When I earned the least, they helped me with how to approach my boss for a raise; and now when I'm the be…

What if you are a kind of an high achiever, and companies would be willing to pay more for your output than an average one?

Or assume you do 2x better work, they initially pay you the same, then you get a better offer elsewhere, and they would want to match, but if they do, you would be getting paid a lot more than your coworkers.

Re: Europe to End "Salary Secrecy": Employee Salaries to Become Public by 2026

#76

Post by mewpmewp2 »

patall wrote: post #64
JohnFen wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To avoid the social consequences amongst your peers? Perhaps that's not an issue in Norway, but it's an issue in the US. I don't want my coworkers to know how much I make because if I'm making substantially more or less than them, it will affect how they perceive and interact with me.

Why do you not want for everyone to be treated fairly? If I earn more without good reason, why should I be more loyal to some rich owner than to my colleague that I am interacting with on a daily basis. Do people in the US think like this? (Note though: I don't think many people acyually check each others tax returns, as that kind of already implies enviousness.)

> (Note though: I don't think many people acyually check each others tax returns, as that kind of already implies enviousness.)

I wouldn't directly check it, if they see that I have done so, but if I could have someone else check or similar, I would definitely get it checked what everyone makes. Not specifically because of envy, but it would just be a no brainer thing to do in terms of understanding the market.

Re: Europe to End "Salary Secrecy": Employee Salaries to Become Public by 2026

#77

Post by surgical_fire »

pdonis wrote: post #74
surgical_fire wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's pretend companies don't collude to suppress salaries. Of course, this would never happen. In capitalism, fair competition is a given.

> companies don't collude to suppress salaries If companies treat employees as commodities, which is largely the case, they don't have to collude to suppress salaries. The basic economics of commodities is enough. The only way for employees to really have any bargaining power is to not be commodities; but trying to do that as employees is swimming against a strong economic current, because companies who can't treat t…

Which is why proper regulations that ensure labor protections is a good thing.

The relationship between employee and employer is fundamentally adversarial, and the employer has all the power in that relationship.

Re: Europe to End "Salary Secrecy": Employee Salaries to Become Public by 2026

#78

Post by fragmede »

School-Cotton wrote: post #22

How will this work with VC-backed startup where a large chunk of compensation is options of unknown value?

they have a paper value, it's not unknown, it's listed on the 409A. it's just that there isn't a free market for those shares.

Re: Europe to End "Salary Secrecy": Employee Salaries to Become Public by 2026

#79

Post by hexo »

mewpmewp2 wrote: post #71
hexo wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it is not of unknown value. in fact, they are valued as you have to pay taxes from it

I'm from Europe. I don't have to pay taxes from RSUs before I have actually sold the stock, even if it's vested and neither do I have to pay any taxes on options until I have made actual profit from them. But yes, I do wonder if it will direct a lot of negotiations into the more "benefits" section of the thing.

Interesting, obviously I must be in other EU country, or laws have changed, but here it was mandatory to pay taxes from vested RSUs.

Re: Europe to End "Salary Secrecy": Employee Salaries to Become Public by 2026

#80

Post by vundercind »

matsemann wrote: post #66
jppope wrote: post #55

So question for HN on this topic: I've always considered salaries not being public to be better for me because historically I've been able to negotiate well when we get to that stage, but I know that this isn't the case for everyone. I am also aware that employers can pay for previous w2 salary info (assuming the company used a major payroll provider)... and there are other strategies that companies use that gives th…

You're assuming you're negotiating well, but what if more info just raises the floor for everyone? How do you even know you're negotiating well, if you don't know the baseline? I'm curious if most people just think they're above average in competency, and also think they're above average in pay.

Ask CEOs if they preferred the days of salary secrecy for their jobs.
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