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What to do about America's killer cars

economist.com

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Re: What to do about America's killer cars

#71

Post by mcmcmc »

screye wrote: post #45
mcmcmc wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, and fuck everyone who lives in the country and has large animals, or anyone who wants to haul a camper or trailer. A subcompact can fit like two bales of hay, surely that’s enough right?

What sort of large animals need a pick up truck ? Anyone who owns horses or cows surely doesn't live in cities. The original comment appears to be talking about urban areas in particular.

Most of them… How do you haul hay? How do you haul a stock trailer to move animals around or take them to the vet? Move fence panels around or haul water?

The comment very clearly says anyone who has a truck for non commercial purposes is an asshole. No qualifiers on where you live. Even non profits are assholes. If OP meant something else maybe they shouldn’t use broad generalizations.

Re: What to do about America's killer cars

#72

Post by mitthrowaway2 »

paulmd wrote: post #68
mitthrowaway2 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Didn't a minivan or a station wagon used to fill this role?

Both of those are SUV-class vehicles and a minivan is pretty much the quintessential SUV. Other than styling there really isn’t a difference between a traverse and a windstar or whatever.

One big difference, from a "killer cars" perspective, is the height of the front hood: https://www.carsized.com/en/cars/compare/honda-odyssey-2014-...

(Sorry they don't seem to have the Windstar on carsized, but the honda odyssey is a pretty close match).

Station wagons and SUVs are different vehicles. SUVs are basically extended-cab sedans, whereas SUVs are built with higher ground clearance and a higher-center of gravity, many on a truck frame.

Re: What to do about America's killer cars

#73

Post by trog »

misun78 wrote: post #58
aikinai wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mean in another country? Where would that actually be in the US?

NYC, Boston, and SF if SF can get its act together. There are a plethora of small livable cities as well such as Boulder, CO.

Are there any cities where you don't need to be very wealthy to live there? The four you mentioned do not strike me as the kind of places you can live in without significant resources (I'm an Australian; I've been to all those cities except Boulder and wouldn't fancy living somewhere in them that was walkable without a lot of money, but I don't know them extremely well).

Re: What to do about America's killer cars

#74

Post by trog »

_yb2s wrote: post #32
misun78 wrote: post #3

Let me be the first one to say it - anyone who drives a large pick-up truck for non-commercial reasons is a grade A asshole. SUV drivers aren't that far off, though I sympathize with the game theory element of buying SUVs to protect against other larger cars -- but I would expect you to take accountability and drive slower and safer than smaller cars. These monstrosities are environmentally unfriendly, pedestrian unf…

This is pretty absurd… there are plenty of non commercial reasons to use a truck- towing trailers, hauling wood, etc. they’re pretty essential for people that live in the country, do subsistence farming, or build/maintain their own house. I grew up in the country in a house my dad built, and we got much of our food from plants and animals we raised- we needed a truck. Ultimately all motor vehicles are pretty dangerou…

80%+ of Americans live in cities - is hauling wood and activities related to subsistence farming a regular priority?

I live in Australia and am surrounded by people that choose to drive massive dual cab utes (trucks) as a lifestyle choice - they are mostly used for commuting. This is insane.

I have no problem with tradies driving utes to move supplies and tools to their workplace. But I would say at least half of the ones I see, if not more, are not used for this purpose.

Re: What to do about America's killer cars

#75

Post by trog »

kortilla wrote: post #36
misun78 wrote: post #3

Let me be the first one to say it - anyone who drives a large pick-up truck for non-commercial reasons is a grade A asshole. SUV drivers aren't that far off, though I sympathize with the game theory element of buying SUVs to protect against other larger cars -- but I would expect you to take accountability and drive slower and safer than smaller cars. These monstrosities are environmentally unfriendly, pedestrian unf…

Anyone who thinks large pickup trucks are only for “commercial use” is a knuckle-dragging city-dweller. Now that we both have the name calling out of the way, how would you suggest I tow my utility trailer without a truck?

This misses the point and it's why talking about cars is so annoying if you're a person who doesn't give a shit about cars.

How often do you tow your utility trailer? If you do it every day because you need it for work, then having a big truck probably makes sense.

But if you're like many people who have trucks, you probably do this once a year, if ever, but still feel like you "need" a truck for these occasions.

It's like the people in Australia who live in the outback and need to drive 800km every few weeks to drive to a town to buy supplies. Yeh, sure, maybe a diesel ute with a 200L tank is the right choice for you. But it doesn't mean EVs are a complete waste of time for the 90 percent of Australians that live in cities.

Most people aren't hauling around a trailer every minute.

Re: What to do about America's killer cars

#76

Post by defrost »

trog wrote: post #75
kortilla wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone who thinks large pickup trucks are only for “commercial use” is a knuckle-dragging city-dweller. Now that we both have the name calling out of the way, how would you suggest I tow my utility trailer without a truck?

This misses the point and it's why talking about cars is so annoying if you're a person who doesn't give a shit about cars. How often do you tow your utility trailer? If you do it every day because you need it for work, then having a big truck probably makes sense. But if you're like many people who have trucks, you probably do this once a year, if ever, but still feel like you "need" a truck for these occasions. It'…

> How often do you tow your utility trailer? If you do it every day because you need it for work, then having a big truck probably makes sense.

Nope.

We're in Australia, we have a 35 year old home over built double axle heavy steel frame trailer built to handle off road conditions in the north west; it's got heavy duty leaf springs, slaved brakes, can take some serious load tonnage and gets used weekly (still, and has dome for 35+ years).

It gets pulled by a six cylinder sedan car with a Hayman-Reese tow point and tracking anti sway bars.

It's done well in excess of 3 million km now (been stripped down to frame and rebuilt twice now (new wiring, new brakes, refurb'd springs, etc)).

Don't need a big "truck" (oversized Toorak Tractor).

Well, save for hauling wheat and cattle etc. but we have prime movers + semi trailers for that .. and for fire fighting we have an ex military heavy chassis truck modified to carry 5 tonne of water off road .. but that's a bigger beast than US SUV "trucks".

Re: What to do about America's killer cars

#77

Post by oliwarner »

DevKoala wrote: post #44

I drove a Miata for 11 years, even a regular sized car would be a mortal threat. I drive an SUV now and I plan on driving a bigger safer car once I have a family. It is an arms race on the road.

You seem to have forgotten that your family are also going to be road users for much of their early lives. Walking on sidewalks, cycling on streets, etc, etc.

Clambering into your APC loses you visibility, gain stopping distance and mushrooms any impact force. Your kids are going to be walking and cycling out behind these tanks. There isn't an arms race; a bigger pair of shoes or magic helmet that's going to protect them from this insanity.

Re: What to do about America's killer cars

#78

Post by blooalien »

lumb63 wrote: post #28
misun78 wrote: post #3

Let me be the first one to say it - anyone who drives a large pick-up truck for non-commercial reasons is a grade A asshole. SUV drivers aren't that far off, though I sympathize with the game theory element of buying SUVs to protect against other larger cars -- but I would expect you to take accountability and drive slower and safer than smaller cars. These monstrosities are environmentally unfriendly, pedestrian unf…

If your goal is to reduce the amount of pickup trucks and SUVs on the road, then you’re going to have to convince people who drive those vehicles to stop. Opening by calling that audience “grade A assholes” is probably not winning anyone over toward your cause. You’d probably have better luck telling them how beneficial it would be for them, those they care about, their community, etc., rather than taking an adversar…

At this point it's pretty clear that they don't actually care about any of those things. You can tell them all about benefits, but the only "benefit" those people are shooting for is "Pwn the Libs!" and if they have to sacrifice their descendants' futures to do it, well... "Sorry, kids... No future for you. Blame the Democrats."

Re: What to do about America's killer cars

#79

Post by throw0101c »

_yb2s wrote: post #32
misun78 wrote: post #3

Let me be the first one to say it - anyone who drives a large pick-up truck for non-commercial reasons is a grade A asshole. SUV drivers aren't that far off, though I sympathize with the game theory element of buying SUVs to protect against other larger cars -- but I would expect you to take accountability and drive slower and safer than smaller cars. These monstrosities are environmentally unfriendly, pedestrian unf…

This is pretty absurd… there are plenty of non commercial reasons to use a truck- towing trailers, hauling wood, etc. they’re pretty essential for people that live in the country, do subsistence farming, or build/maintain their own house. I grew up in the country in a house my dad built, and we got much of our food from plants and animals we raised- we needed a truck. Ultimately all motor vehicles are pretty dangerou…

> This is pretty absurd… there are plenty of non commercial reasons to use a truck- towing trailers, hauling wood, etc. they’re pretty essential for people that live in the country, do subsistence farming, or build/maintain their own house.

Of course there are practical reasons for pickup trucks. But those are not the reasons why people actually buy them.

63% of F-150 drivers self report that they rarely/never tow:

* https://www.axios.com/ford-pickup-trucks-history

29% tow "occasionally", and 7% regularly.

> I grew up in the country in a house my dad built, and we got much of our food from plants and animals we raised- we needed a truck.

Fourth-fifths of the US population is currently in an urban area:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urbanization_in_the_United_Sta...

* https://www.statista.com/statistics/269967/urbanization-in-t...

Few people tow, and if you want to haul things a minivan would probably be most practical.

Even in construction, I think most folks would be better served with a van, as you can lock up your tools more securely and any supplies won't be exposed to the elements.

Re: What to do about America's killer cars

#80

Post by throw0101c »

kortilla wrote: post #36
misun78 wrote: post #3

Let me be the first one to say it - anyone who drives a large pick-up truck for non-commercial reasons is a grade A asshole. SUV drivers aren't that far off, though I sympathize with the game theory element of buying SUVs to protect against other larger cars -- but I would expect you to take accountability and drive slower and safer than smaller cars. These monstrosities are environmentally unfriendly, pedestrian unf…

Anyone who thinks large pickup trucks are only for “commercial use” is a knuckle-dragging city-dweller. Now that we both have the name calling out of the way, how would you suggest I tow my utility trailer without a truck?

> Now that we both have the name calling out of the way, how would you suggest I tow my utility trailer without a truck?

Congratulations on being part of the 7% that uses their pickup truck to tow "regularly":

* https://www.axios.com/ford-pickup-trucks-history

As opposed to the 63% who self report rarely/never, and 29% occasionally.

For your question, the first detail of import would be what weight capacity do you need to handle?

* https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/articles/best-minivans-towing

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