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Why A.I. Isn't Going to Make Art

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Re: Why A.I. Isn't Going to Make Art

#71
Over the summer I have had about half a dozen conversations with people who work in non-technical fields (university administration, healthcare, government administration, teachers, etc) who are furtively using ChatGPT to augment their communication tasks. There is a hushed-tones quality to them admitting it.

I suspect the rate of individualized adoption of AI augmented writing is well beyond what a casual observer here on HN would think it is.

I also share Chiang's worry about this:

> We are entering an era where someone might use a large language model to generate a document out of a bulleted list, and send it to a person who will use a large language model to condense that document into a bulleted list. Can anyone seriously argue that this is an improvement?

I do not think OpenAI Et al. set out to create a self-perpetuating slop machine like this but it sure feels like this is where it is going. For individuals it improves their life I guess but when zoomed out there is something quite dystopian about it.

Re: Why A.I. Isn't Going to Make Art

#72
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People outside of tech seem to think that AI creation is just "fat finger a prompt -> take output and claim to be an artist on the interwebs" Probably because that's the predominant experience of people encountering AI art on the Internet. I have no doubt whatsoever that there are people out there using AI to do interesting things, but like with basically every technology, the vast, vast majority of the output you'…

I think this is mostly just Sturgeon's law (ninety percent of everything is crap) opposed to anything unique to ML tools. The vast majority of photographs you see on the Internet have also likely been quick phone-camera snaps, with comparatively very little "high art" photography. Lower entry barriers result in more works total, but with disproportionately many at the lower end. There is still a lot of interesting wo…

> I think this is mostly just Sturgeon's law (ninety percent of everything is crap) opposed to anything unique to ML tools.

I think the unique point to ML tools is the sheer volume that, IMHO, vastly outpaces 90%. And I think that's partially down to the fact that image generators are themselves, by their existence, low-effort easy-to-use tools to create images. It's not as though there wasn't already a vast and comprehensive existing tool-set for aspiring artists, even ones with not a penny to their name, to use. Tons of open source art programs exist, and if you are ready to jump to paying for your tools, you have an incredibly diverse set of options over all manner of capabilities, price points, and focuses. The notion that these tools "democratize" art has been silly to me from the beginning; there were already tons of tools available to anyone who wanted to learn the skills to use them. These tools, instead, seem directly aimed at people who don't want to learn those skills, and like... unskilled artisans don't make good things. Sorry not sorry. If you lack the interest in the subject to learn the skills of how to make a thing, you probably also lack the interest to learn what constitutes a good version of that thing, and even if your AI is very well made, you won't know what to really ask it for. Which I think is the reason behind so many prompts including stuff like "octane render, unreal engine, featured on artstation."

So while yes I agree in principle that Sturgeon's law is definitely at work here, I think it's important to note that the tools themselves are largely just... not really going to fit into a creative's workflow who has the skills already, not even just the literal skill to put a pencil to paper, but the skill to know what a good version of whatever they want would look like. It's the same reason I don't really use copilot all that much, because it's easier to just write the stuff I know needs writing than asking it to generate it, and then modify it to suit my code-style and existing environment. I don't find that a compelling time saver, it's more like a time cul-de-sac. Yes I'm spending the time writing the prompt instead of writing the code, but I'm frankly pleased as punch to just write the code.

I guess to TLDR my own comment here: if you knew how to make the things, you'd just make the things. Image generators are explicitly for people who don't know how, and that reflects in the quality of what's made.

Re: Why A.I. Isn't Going to Make Art

#73
post #24

Artists have been spending decades redefining art to broaden it as much as possible, to the point where it seems to be defined now as anything that makes you feel something. It sure seems like AI art is making some people feel something alright.

Do you feel anything when looking at DALE 3 images on this page? https://openai.com/index/dall-e-3/ I can’t tell you why, but I don’t really react to any of them or really any AI art I’ve seen.

I like them, if anything a little more than the contents of the pre-AI art galleries I've walked around.

But some of my friends say as you do.

I wonder if this could be uncanny valley? I understand that sense of off-ness will be in different places for everyone, as we know (and therefore spot) different things about what we're looking at.

Re: Why A.I. Isn't Going to Make Art

#74
post #24

Artists have been spending decades redefining art to broaden it as much as possible, to the point where it seems to be defined now as anything that makes you feel something. It sure seems like AI art is making some people feel something alright.

Do you feel anything when looking at DALE 3 images on this page? https://openai.com/index/dall-e-3/ I can’t tell you why, but I don’t really react to any of them or really any AI art I’ve seen.

I would hazard a guess that there will eventually be art you consume that won't immediately be obvious to you that no human artist made it

With the context of looking at images on the dall-e page you're looking at a gallery of ai images not art in its natural habitat.

Art deserves to be contextualized properly not be evaluated by the large batch.

Re: Why A.I. Isn't Going to Make Art

#75
The definition of art seems to be the polarizing issue here. "But is the world better off with more documents that have had minimal effort expended on them?" Value is attributed to high-effort tasks that are a scarce resource [1]. When AI creates something in a short amount of time, derivative of the past, and available to everyone, it will be considered cheap. By this definition, there's still room for mass-market creative works to be created by AI. Netflix already does that, even with humans in control. But high economic value or notoriety will only come from taking the first draft and doing something physically or intellectually innovative with it for the first time - which I relate back to what Chiang writes.

[1] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S09218...

Re: Why A.I. Isn't Going to Make Art

#76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we have yet to see any AI systems capable of exhibiting intelligence beyond stylistic mimicry or forming generalized knowledge about concepts from large data sets. I've said this long before useful LLMs, but I don't think we've observed this in humans, either. Human creativity can be put into two very similar categories: 1) Metaphor; the arbitrary application of the dynamics of one thing to another. "What if inform…

Human beings are currently capable of productively searching through the space of possible knowledge and experience in ways no current AI systems are. This is not to say AI will never do this, but I think it's fair to say there are things human beings are capable of doing today that AI is not, and it remains very much unclear whether AI will ever be able to achieve important milestones like being conscious in the sen…

> Human beings are currently capable of productively searching through the space of possible knowledge and experience in ways no current AI systems are.

I would say the opposite: AI are very good at searching through information spaces, much better than we are.

They're terrible at learning from experience, the points made in the article about that are I think valid, but they're wildly super-human at searching.

> like Qualia

For me, the biggest issue here is: we don't know what that is, it's just what we do.

Without knowing what qualia actually is, we can't tell if an AI does or doesn't have it, we can't deliberately make a machine which does or doesn't have it.

I really hope we figure that question out before someone tries full-brain uploading/emulation.

Re: Why A.I. Isn't Going to Make Art

#77

This is an amusingly ignorant article. Its initial argument, that AI tools don't produce art because they offer meaningfully fewer knobs and dials to creators than a camera, is a classic example of mistaking the contingent for the essential. Those knobs and dials do exist. Download a copy of Stable Diffusion and see all the things you can tweak, iteratively, using the same seed, to work towards an image you desire. T…

My friend is a very good painter, but not a famous painter. In the art world, its an open secret that most famous painters, especially ones that are old, don't really paint much. They hire "ghost-painters" to do the actual work for them, and they simply set the direction of the art pieces and collaborate with the hired-on-contract ghost-painters. My friend has painted for a bunch of these artists and when I ask her whether its unethical, she just shrugs her shoulders because she needs to pay for rent but also, importantly, she thinks that the painting really does belong to the artist setting the direction - that she's merely doing the grunt work.

Are the thousands of choices of which brush strokes to put where actually the seed of creativity? According to some artists - not really.

Re: Why A.I. Isn't Going to Make Art

#79

Art is made by people. It’s not complicated.

You have opened a big can of worms that was explored a century ago, if I throw a bucket of paint on a canvas and let it drip, is it made by people? I could argue that the entire painting was made by gravity, which is definitely not human. Where do you draw the line? Is it art if the work is completely digital and made with digital tools, what if I use smart brushes? A camera?
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