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The Future of TLA+ [pdf]

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Re: The Future of TLA+ [pdf]

#71
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Being able to create systems by writing specifications and having the computer figure out how to execute them was basically the point of fifth generation programming languages. Yeah, but in maths you can specify anything, including things that the computer is unlikely to figure out how to execute if it's possible at all. Programming languages of every generation are very useful, as is mathematics, even though they'…

> in maths you can specify anything, including things that the computer is unlikely to figure out how to execute if it's possible at all. Well, in TLA+ you can write programs that run forever (or at longer than you'll live) and don't do anything like "model check" or whatever you want to call executing TLA+, even though they are perfectly sound mathematically. This should make it clear that TLA+ is not maths.

Proving the Riemann hypothesis might also take longer than you live, and in fact may be impossible. So the Riemann hypothesis is not math?

Re: The Future of TLA+ [pdf]

#72
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Being able to create systems by writing specifications and having the computer figure out how to execute them was basically the point of fifth generation programming languages. Yeah, but in maths you can specify anything, including things that the computer is unlikely to figure out how to execute if it's possible at all. Programming languages of every generation are very useful, as is mathematics, even though they'…

> in maths you can specify anything, including things that the computer is unlikely to figure out how to execute if it's possible at all. Well, in TLA+ you can write programs that run forever (or at longer than you'll live) and don't do anything like "model check" or whatever you want to call executing TLA+, even though they are perfectly sound mathematically. This should make it clear that TLA+ is not maths.

I don't understand the order of your implication. You can use maths (say, some ZFC formalism) to specify the execution of any Python or Java or C program and even write a software tool that executes it. It's the converse that isn't true: You cannot write a Python or Java or C program that accurately expresses many mathematical theorems (e.g. you can only express computable numbers in a program). I.e. the expressivity of mathematics includes that of programming, but not vice versa.

In TLA+ you can express every theorem in ZFC, but that doesn't mean you can automatically prove or disprove every proposition or even every theorem, because that is indeed a limitation of mathematics. There are also lots and lots of theorems you can state and prove in TLA+ yet not prove automatically with the TLC model-checker (or, indeed, with any known automatic proof method). That is a limitation of TLC (or of any known automatic proof methods), but not one of TLA+.

Re: The Future of TLA+ [pdf]

#73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The original from pron: f ≜ CHOOSE f ∈ [Int → Int] : ∀ x ∈ Int : f[x] = -f[x] You added the > in your quote of pron, he didn't have it in the original. There is no c in ℤ with c != 0 s.t. f(x) = c and f(x) = -f(x), that would imply that c = -c for non-zero integers which is not true. The only function that can satisfy pron's constraints is f(x) = 0 since c = 0 is the only time c = -c, or 0 = -0.

That’s true, my mistake. Thank you for the clarification! In this case, I have another question. Why is this original definition different than say f ≜ CHOOSE f ∈ [Int → Int]: ∀ x ∈ Int : f[x] = 0 If you want some function to be 0, just specify it. Why does one need to find this a broader but more complex way of specifying the possible “input” space in TLA+? How does it help is my question, I guess.

Because sometimes you're not sure if your belief is correct. To show what TLA+ can do, I used a simple example where the truth of the proposition (f is the zero function) is pretty obvious yet behaves very differently from how programming works to show how you can prove things in TLA+:

    THEOREM fIsTheZeroFunction ≜
         f = [x ∈ Int ↦ 0]
    PROOF
      ⟨1⟩ DEFINE zero[x ∈ Int] ≜ 0
      ⟨1⟩1. ∃ g ∈ [Int → Int] : ∀ x ∈ Int : g[x] = -g[x] BY zero ∈ [Int → Int]
      ⟨1⟩2. ∀ g ∈ [Int → Int] : (∀ x ∈ Int : g[x] = -g[x]) ⇒ g = zero OBVIOUS
      ⟨1⟩3. QED BY ⟨1⟩1, ⟨1⟩2 DEF f
The TLAPS TLA+ proof-checker verifies this proof instantly.

You can then use that proof like so:

    THEOREM f[23409873848726346824] = 0 
       BY fIsTheZeroFunction
But when you specify a non-trivial thing, say a distributed system, you want to make sure that your proposition -- say, that no data can be lost even in the face of a faulty network and crashing machines -- is true but you're not sure of it in advance.

Writing deductive proofs like above can be tedious when they're not so simple, and the TLA+ toolbox contains another tool, called TLC, that can automatically verify certain propositions (with some caveats), especially those that arise when specifying computer systems (though it cannot automatically prove that f is zero everywhere).

So the purpose of my example wasn't to show something that is useful for engineers in and of itself, but to show that TLA+ works very differently from programming languages, and it is useful for different things: not to create running software but to answer important questions about software.

Re: The Future of TLA+ [pdf]

#74
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is TLA+ simple? I find this hard to accept. It is very, very simple, and I would say easier to learn than Python, as long as you remember that it is not programming but maths. For example, suppose you specify this function on the integers: f ≜ CHOOSE f ∈ [Int → Int] : ∀ x ∈ Int : f[x] = -f[x] What function is it? Clearly, it's the zero function rather than what defining the equivalent "programming function" in, say…

Ah yes "f triangle equals CHOOSE f member of array of int to int, namely, upside down A x member of int, namely, x'th element of f equals the negative of x'th element of f." Easier than python indeed, where this simple and elegant expression is turned into the much more complicated and ugly form of def f(x): return -x

Assuming you meant to write,

    def f(x):
        return -f(x)
it would have, indeed, been an identical definition -- the value of f(x) is equal to -f(x) -- but it's meaning is completely different from the one in TLA+ (and mathematics). Unlike the TLA+ function, the Python function is not zero for all integers. That was my point: TLA+ isn't and doesn't behave like programming; it's mathematics.

Second, on the question of simplicity. Let's talk semantics first. If I tell you you have a function f(x) on the integers such that f(x) = -f(x), it's quite simple to understand that the function is zero everywhere. Yet, it's not the case in Python (or C or Java or Haskell) because what they do is far more complicated. To understand why it's not zero, you have to know a lot more. The behaviour of that definition in Python is a lot more complicated than the behaviour of the function in TLA+, it's just that since you've already spent a significant amount of time learning the fundamentals of programming and computers, you already know that complicated stuff, so there isn't much for you to learn. But if you don't already know programming, then learning the basic mathematics of TLA+ and how they work would be easier than learning the basics of programming and how computers work so that you'd understand why f(x) in Python is not the zero function. How helpful would it be to use Python syntax if the meaning of how functions work would be completely different from Python's?

Let's take a look at another simple example:

    Inc(x) ≜ x + 1
You may think it works like:

    def Inc(x):
         return x + 1
but it doesn't, because (assuming you specify that x is always an integer, a detail I'll skip for the sake of this example), you need to be able to write things like:

    3 = Inc(x)'
Because it's maths, we can substitute:

    3 = (x + 1)'
Then apply the rules of the prime operator:

    3 = x' + 1
Subtract 1 from both sides, as that preserves equality:

    2 = x'
Equality is symmetric:

    x' = 2
And so 3 = Inc(x)' specifies the same as assigning 2 to be the next value of x, because in maths you can manipulate expressions by substitution and application of very simple rules. Writing it in this way can be very important and extremely useful when reasoning about the similarity of two different specifications of the same algorithm.

That's how maths (and so TLA+) works, but it's not how programming works, and thinking of operator or function definitions as if they were like subroutine definitions only serves to confuse.

This brings us to the matter of syntax. TLA+ is a language for writing mathematics, and it uses a syntax that is quite similar to standard mathematical notation (certainly more similar than Python is to standard notation) as it's been in use for over 100 years. When you write mathematics, that is the syntax you'd expect. TLA+ differs from standard notation in some interesting ways because much thought has gone into designing the syntax to serve a purpose (e.g. https://lamport.azurewebsites.net/pubs/lamport-howtowrite.pd...), but that purpose is very much not programming, but reasoning about programs. This is as it works in other engineering disciplines, too: a sophisticated CAD/CAM tool may be used to help construct something, but ordinary mathematics is used to reason about certain important aspects of the thing.

Standard notation is not always consistent, but it does have qualities that are desirable when writing mathematics, especially when it comes to substitution. In TLA+, as in mathematics, writing x = 3 means the same as writing 3 = x. It's both strange and complicates matters considerably that in Python this is not the case (indeed, in programming you cannot substitute things as freely as in maths/TLA+).

In this case, too, the Python syntax seems simpler to you because you already know programming and maybe you're less familiar with standard mathematical notation (it would take you no more than a few hours to learn it), but if you tried writing maths in Python, you'd find that the syntax is not simple at all. That is because Python is a language for writing programs and the syntax is optimised for that purpose. TLA+ is a language for writing mathematics, and the syntax is optimised for that purpose. But mathematics is simpler than Python programming which you can see both in how complex it is to fully specify (ZFC vs Python that is) and also in how much easier it is to learn (assuming, of course, you don't already know most of what it is that you're supposed to learn).

Re: The Future of TLA+ [pdf]

#75
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could say you ignored math classes in a more short form. Parent describes a selection of element (f) from a set of functions such that `f(x)` equals `-f(x)`. Your python example is quite far from that.

If a projects desires a future, it requires adoption. For that, it must be approachable. When the syntax throws unicode math symbols at the user, and requires the user to first define the universe before even thinking about "this function negates the input", and in general throws years of programming language syntax conventions away, it's just not approachable. I understand and empathize with the ideal that everyone…

> If a projects desires a future, it requires adoption. For that, it must be approachable.

But TLA+'s past, present, and future, is as a language for writing mathematical specifications. When you compare it to other languages for writing mathematics, like Coq or Lean, you will see that it is, indeed, much more approachable and orders of magnitude easier to learn. Writing mathematics in Python syntax is not only foreign but also quite inapproachable and confusing, because the meaning of things like functions and operators are so different in Python and mathematics. Using the same syntax for things that work very differently is not helpful.[1]

Now, TLA+ is not a programming language, it's not trying to compete with programming language, and like mathematics in general, it can never hope to have as many practitioners as there are programmers. It is, however, already the most popular language for writing mathematical specification of software and hardware, because programmers and hardware designers can learn and apply it much quicker than they can Lean or Coq.

Not every programmer is interested in using mathematics to specify digital systems, but some fund it very useful, and for some it's even necessary.

> The TLA+ community can not have it both ways, either stop bemoaning the lack of adoption of formal verification, or adapt to meet people where they are at.

You do have a point, but it's complicated. Mathematics is inherently more expressive than programming, and so there are often specifications that are simply much easier to write in maths than in a programming language. Writing maths in programming-language syntax is not helpful and is even a hindrance, and the problem is that it's not that a lot of programmers don't want to learn mathematical syntax; they just don't want to learn that discipline. and that's fine; I'm not currently interested in learning Japanese, but it's not because written Japanese uses symbols that are unfamiliar to me. Even if I could learn Japanese using the Latin alphabet, I'm not sure it would make things significantly easier; at best it would make things slightly easier at the cost of me not being able to employ Japanese as much in practice.

So formal methods have a choice between specifying with programming language -- which makes the method more easily adoptable by programmers but makes some very useful specifications impossible -- or use mathematics to allow people to write simpler, shorter, and more powerful specifications, but require them to learn the basics of specifying with mathematics.

What do we do? Both! There are specification languages that aim to be programming languages (or similar to programming, and somebody here mentioned Quint, which is one of the languages that do just that), and there are specification languages that are simpler and more powerful, but they are very much not programming and they don't resemble programming, and TLA+ is a language like that.

> Are you trying to build something and invite others?

Yes.

> Or are you trying to prove your own intellect?

People speaking German aren't trying to prove their intellect, it's just that I have never learnt it. There is no more intellect in using basic mathematics to specify things than in programming. If anything, I think programming is much more difficult (of course it's more common, largely due to economic incentives). But the disciplines are different. There is no more intellect in writing newspaper columns than in writing Python programs, but they are not the same, and if you want to do both you'd need to learn both.

> To whom and what for?

To those who are interested in the most powerful way to reason about the behaviour of engineered systems and are willing to spend a couple of weeks learning something that is very much outside the discipline of programming to do so. Having a tool that allows you to do that is important. I learnt TLA+ over 10 years ago when I was designing a protocol for a distributed system and ran into some subtle and dangerous bugs. TLA+ was then, and is now, the tool that most cheaply and easily allowed me to find the flaw in my algorithm and verify that an improved algorithm doesn't suffer from it. If you're using AWS directly or indirectly, you are using software that was designed with the help of TLA+.

TLA+ is not for every programmer simply because not every programmer writes software that TLA+ is the best tool to assist with, but I think that more people could find TLA+ helpful than they realise. But TLA+ is so helpful in those cases because it can be much more expressive than anything that could be expressed in a programming language.

Others may certainly find more programming-like specification languages more useful, and that's great, too! The more people know how to use various formal methods and when each may be more or less applicable, the better software will become.

[1]: Here's an example where TLA+ syntax is similar to programming:

    A(x, y) ≜ x + y
This defines an operator A(x, y), that is equal to x + y. This looks similar enough to defining a subroutine in a programming language, but thinking about it that way will be confusing if you see seomthing like:

   A(x, y)' = 3
which means "the sum of x and y will be 3 at a future instant". The more correct way of thinking about the definition of the operator is that its definition may be substituted in any occurrence of the operator (i.e. you can write `x + y` whenever you see A(x, y)). This isn't like a subroutine even in a language like Haskell. Also, it's not a cute idiosyncrasy, but actually important when you want to express the similarities between two different specifications (often at two different levels of detail), something that is very useful.

Re: The Future of TLA+ [pdf]

#76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it’s not. Gallina is not a specification tool in the way TLA+ is (even if coq calls it its specification language). Gallina is a language used to write mathematical statements which you intend to prove. It’s not designed to write specifications. Coq is definitely not a specification tool. You can probably prove a specification with it in the same way you actually can do symbolic manipulation with C if you really…

Of course Coq is also a specification tool. C compilers have been formally verified with Coq. So you have a spec for C in Coq.

"The C standard formalised in Coq" is literally the title of Robbert Krebbers's PhD, that gives you an idea of how usual and easy it was.

The fact that you can formalise a specification in order to prove it doesn't make Coq a specification tool.

Re: The Future of TLA+ [pdf]

#77
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s true, my mistake. Thank you for the clarification! In this case, I have another question. Why is this original definition different than say f ≜ CHOOSE f ∈ [Int → Int]: ∀ x ∈ Int : f[x] = 0 If you want some function to be 0, just specify it. Why does one need to find this a broader but more complex way of specifying the possible “input” space in TLA+? How does it help is my question, I guess.

Because sometimes you're not sure if your belief is correct. To show what TLA+ can do, I used a simple example where the truth of the proposition (f is the zero function) is pretty obvious yet behaves very differently from how programming works to show how you can prove things in TLA+: THEOREM fIsTheZeroFunction ≜ f = [x ∈ Int ↦ 0] PROOF ⟨1⟩ DEFINE zero[x ∈ Int] ≜ 0 ⟨1⟩1. ∃ g ∈ [Int → Int] : ∀ x ∈ Int : g[x] = -g[x]…

Thanks for the nice explanation, that makes a lot of sense! Would you have any good recommendations about where to start with TLA+?

Thanks again!

Re: The Future of TLA+ [pdf]

#78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s true, my mistake. Thank you for the clarification! In this case, I have another question. Why is this original definition different than say f ≜ CHOOSE f ∈ [Int → Int]: ∀ x ∈ Int : f[x] = 0 If you want some function to be 0, just specify it. Why does one need to find this a broader but more complex way of specifying the possible “input” space in TLA+? How does it help is my question, I guess.

This was just an example that TLA+ is not executable. You didn't realise that f[x] = -f[x] implies f[x] = 0, and that is how it is often: You have some property, but you don't know what it entails exactly. TLA+ allows you to reason about that.

Thanks, that makes sense!

Re: The Future of TLA+ [pdf]

#79
post #54
post #46

I was looking at TLA a few months ago to consider what it would take to prove multiregion fail over worked correctly. Considering I'd never looked at it before. I did not find it straight forwardly grokkable, which makes me sad. Maybe it needs a library of axioms? I feel there's probably a very nice way to work through it without ingesting effectively a graduate school course in proving software. It really is just ma…

I'd suggest starting with P ( https://github.com/p-org/P ), or picking up Hillel Wayne's TLA+ book to get started.

P is very nice indeed, be advised that it is not an exhaustive checker like TLC (TLA+'s model checker, or Apalache, the symbolic tester). It is more like a higher-level testing framework.

That said, since non-deterministic choices are equi-probable in P, failure conditions are triggered at much higher frequencies than in a conventional testing scenario.

Re: The Future of TLA+ [pdf]

#80
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because sometimes you're not sure if your belief is correct. To show what TLA+ can do, I used a simple example where the truth of the proposition (f is the zero function) is pretty obvious yet behaves very differently from how programming works to show how you can prove things in TLA+: THEOREM fIsTheZeroFunction ≜ f = [x ∈ Int ↦ 0] PROOF ⟨1⟩ DEFINE zero[x ∈ Int] ≜ 0 ⟨1⟩1. ∃ g ∈ [Int → Int] : ∀ x ∈ Int : g[x] = -g[x]…

Thanks for the nice explanation, that makes a lot of sense! Would you have any good recommendations about where to start with TLA+? Thanks again!

I would recommend the TLA+ Video Course: https://lamport.azurewebsites.net/video/videos.html

There are other good resources (some somewhat updated, but not enough to matter) are listed here: https://lamport.azurewebsites.net/tla/learning.html

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