For those who are interested in connections to more advanced mathematics, there is a sense in which √2 is still an integer, even though it is irrational. Specifically there is the notion of “algebraic integers”, which are the set of all complex numbers expressible as the root of a monic polynomial: x^n + a_{n-1}x^(n-1) + … + a_1x + a_0. Here each a_i is a usual integer in ℤ, and monic refers to the leading coefficien…
Yes, but did God make the algebraic integers? Because this looks suspiciously like the work of man.
Euclid's Proof that √2 is Irrational
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Re: Euclid's Proof that √2 is Irrational
#72Earlier quoted context omitted.
> To me, the only formal distinction you can make between the two lies in the use of the excluded middle. It's much dumber than that, since he's invoking the law of the excluded middle to use contradiction at all.
Could you please explain this? Clearly we both understand something completely different by either the term "excluded middle" or "contradiction". Note that Euclid's proof is intuitionistically valid, so it can't use excluded middle.
(quote from you; my emphasis)
Re: Euclid's Proof that √2 is Irrational
#73For those who are interested in connections to more advanced mathematics, there is a sense in which √2 is still an integer, even though it is irrational. Specifically there is the notion of “algebraic integers”, which are the set of all complex numbers expressible as the root of a monic polynomial: x^n + a_{n-1}x^(n-1) + … + a_1x + a_0. Here each a_i is a usual integer in ℤ, and monic refers to the leading coefficien…
Yes, but did God make the algebraic integers? Because this looks suspiciously like the work of man.
Re: Euclid's Proof that √2 is Irrational
#74Earlier quoted context omitted.
As already mentioned by another poster, algebraic numbers are more general than algebraic integers, because the leading coefficient of the polynomial does not have to be one, similarly to the difference between rational numbers and integer numbers, where for the former the denominator does not have to be one, like for the latter.
Ahh, that would explain why the intersection of algebraic integers and Q is Z. I wasn’t convinced of that when I had the notion of algebraic numbers in place of algebraic integers. I like teaching this kind of stuff to my grade 9 and 10 advanced math classes. It’s not that hard to understand and yet it gives students a sense of wonder about how math works. I might try to show the grade 10s algebraic integers now.
Re: Euclid's Proof that √2 is Irrational
#75For those who are interested in connections to more advanced mathematics, there is a sense in which √2 is still an integer, even though it is irrational. Specifically there is the notion of “algebraic integers”, which are the set of all complex numbers expressible as the root of a monic polynomial: x^n + a_{n-1}x^(n-1) + … + a_1x + a_0. Here each a_i is a usual integer in ℤ, and monic refers to the leading coefficien…
Maths is always a bit boggling. You say that root two can be considered an integer despite being irrational. What does "usual integer" mean?
There's a good explanation of the motivation for this concept, here.
Re: Euclid's Proof that √2 is Irrational
#76Earlier quoted context omitted.
> To me, the only formal distinction you can make between the two lies in the use of the excluded middle. It's much dumber than that, since he's invoking the law of the excluded middle to use contradiction at all.
Could you please explain this? Clearly we both understand something completely different by either the term "excluded middle" or "contradiction". Note that Euclid's proof is intuitionistically valid, so it can't use excluded middle.
contradiction: a proof of ⊥. The definition of ⊥ does not matter (it just means false), thanks to the ex falso quodlibet principle.
A proof by contradiction: proving P by showing that (¬P -> ⊥).
Notice that I haven't defined the ¬ operator. This is due to the fact that its definition differs between classical logic and intuitionistic logic. Since the intuitionistic definition of ¬, i.e. "¬P" is a short-hand for "P -> ⊥", is classically equivalent to the definition of ¬ in the classical context (¬P is the statement "P does not hold"), it makes sense to adopt this definition. The astute reader will notice that, with this definition of ¬, a proof by contradiction is exactly a proof of ¬¬P, and it happens that ¬¬P -> P is an equivalent formulation of the excluded middle.
Now, back to Euclid's proof. Let P = "√2 is rational". We want to show Q = ¬P. We can do so by contradiction: assume ¬Q, and derive a contradiction. It *happens* that, when using the scheme of proof by contradiction on a property of the form ¬A, you can simply rearrange the negations to get rid of the use of the excluded middle.
So, going back to your statement,
>Note that Euclid's proof is intuitionistically valid, so it can't use excluded middle.
Well, whether Euclid's proof is intuitionistically valid is a question of point of view. Historically? I doubt it. I doubt that Euclid gave any kind of thought to whether he used the excluded middle, and probably used it pervasively, as all "classical" mathematicians today. However, I agree that it can be made intuitionistically valid using a purely syntactic rewriting. Said differently, Euclid's proof does not rely on the excluded middle. This does not mean you cannot use it because that's how you think or because you prefer it that way. When you see the blow-up of sizes of certain proofs in the non-classical context, you understand why many mathematicians would rather not give a thought to their use of the excluded middle. The same way many people in this thread used the PTA to show that √2 is irrational: that's overkill, but they prefer it that way !
Re: Euclid's Proof that √2 is Irrational
#77For those who are interested in connections to more advanced mathematics, there is a sense in which √2 is still an integer, even though it is irrational. Specifically there is the notion of “algebraic integers”, which are the set of all complex numbers expressible as the root of a monic polynomial: x^n + a_{n-1}x^(n-1) + … + a_1x + a_0. Here each a_i is a usual integer in ℤ, and monic refers to the leading coefficien…
I did a maths undergrad, but I don’t think I ever studied algebraic integers. That’s something I shall have to remedy now, thanks!
Re: Euclid's Proof that √2 is Irrational
#78For those who are interested in connections to more advanced mathematics, there is a sense in which √2 is still an integer, even though it is irrational. Specifically there is the notion of “algebraic integers”, which are the set of all complex numbers expressible as the root of a monic polynomial: x^n + a_{n-1}x^(n-1) + … + a_1x + a_0. Here each a_i is a usual integer in ℤ, and monic refers to the leading coefficien…
> the set of such roots is actually closed under multiplication, addition, and subtraction, and there is even an analogue of prime factorization if you squint I did a maths undergrad, but I don’t think I ever studied algebraic integers. That’s something I shall have to remedy now, thanks!
Re: Euclid's Proof that √2 is Irrational
#79Earlier quoted context omitted.
> the set of such roots is actually closed under multiplication, addition, and subtraction, and there is even an analogue of prime factorization if you squint I did a maths undergrad, but I don’t think I ever studied algebraic integers. That’s something I shall have to remedy now, thanks!
If you took abstract algebra (which presumably you did as a math major), you certainly encountered these at least in the exercises as groups of the form ax + b where x is some irrational number (or imaginary) and a and b are integers are a staple of chapter 1–2 proofs. Gaussian integers ( ai + b ) are a special case that are loads of fun to play with it. They are not unique factorization domains like the integers (e.…
Re: Euclid's Proof that √2 is Irrational
#80And then in 1737 Euler (another name starting with Eu, definitely a good name) showed that the constant e is irrational. His proof exploited the fact that the continued fraction representation of any rational number terminates. The CF representation for e does not.
I see what you did there.