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NASA investigation finds Boeing hindering Americans' return to moon

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Re: NASA investigation finds Boeing hindering Americans' return to moon

#71

Post by nothercastle »

dgfitz wrote: post #65
mananaysiempre wrote: post #10

> During a visit to Michoud in 2023, for example, inspectors discovered that welding on a component of the SLS Core Stage 3 did not meet NASA standards. Per the report, unsatisfactory welding performed on a set of fuel tanks led directly to a seven-month delay in EUS completion. > “According to NASA officials, the welding issues arose due to Boeing’s inexperienced technicians and inadequate work order planning and su…

> Welders are highly qualified and well-paid craftsmen. They’re not. You must be one of those people that hears something once and quotes it as gospel. My BIL did that yesterday: “nfl viewership has been down because of all the different platforms, and it’s been trending down for years.” As it so happens, last year was their second-best year of ratings since ratings were tracked. But, it fit his narrative, facts be d…

I can assure you that skilled welders like the ones you need for aerospace applications are rare and valuable. The welding techniques and standards are much higher than your average welding application

Re: NASA investigation finds Boeing hindering Americans' return to moon

#72

Post by BobbyJo »

DSMan195276 wrote: post #61
zo1 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

The problem is that you can't run a large engineering department based on "Bob says Steve isn't that good". It just doesn't scale, that's the whole reason metrics get introduced.

Exactly. Who's to say Bob knows what he's talking about?

Re: NASA investigation finds Boeing hindering Americans' return to moon

#74

Post by scottyah »

whatshisface wrote: post #50
cqqxo4zV46cp wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What “the US” did 50+ years ago has absolutely no say in what “the US” can do now.

Our GDP is about 50x higher now than it was then, in real terms.

GDP in such a services-based economy is unreliable as a metric for the ability to produce, since just moving the money around now contributes to it.

Re: NASA investigation finds Boeing hindering Americans' return to moon

#75

Post by akira2501 »

dotnet00 wrote: post #55
akira2501 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is "Moon Policy" anywhere near the ballot box? Particularly for senators? To the extent it might be, isn't it the inverse problem, to cancel the program is to lose jobs. So they're mostly just being held hostage by the monopoly. The person you are voting for has fantastically small power. Which, is not what we were taught, but it does seem to be the fact.

The topic buying the votes isn't moon policy, it's that they're creating jobs. SLS was being given absurd sums of money for development well before Artemis was a thing. Canceling SLS would mean losing jobs, yes. But that's not because of some sort of Boeing monopoly on space (they're obviously not a monopoly in that area), it's because the program is designed to be inefficient, with tons of 3rd party suppliers intent…

> it's that they're creating jobs.

It seems to me they just repurposed other industries and companies that were dwindling or going out of business anyways. I'm failing to see the millions of people put to work on this project.

> they're obviously not a monopoly in that area

SLS was officially started in 2011. SpaceX just had it's first successful launch and public verification of their platform in 2008. The situation today is different than it was when SLS was being put together. I think it's worth understanding in that context. Aside from that, Boeing is a monopoly, which grants them lots of power to manipulate the government.

> They and other old school defense contractors specifically advertise these projects with the promise of creating jobs in all 50 states.

Okay.. then how do they connect that back to specific senators in the minds of the voters to help them get elected?

> a single senator was capable of holding back

Was that simply because he was a senator or because he was on a _specific_ committee? Do we want to get into how committee assignments are handed out? Or how that particular "power" actually functions?

> because if you can refuel in space

Maintaining cryogenics in orbit is actually harder than people admit and you're resting a huge part of your argument on a very shaky ideal here.

Re: NASA investigation finds Boeing hindering Americans' return to moon

#76

Post by whatshisface »

DSMan195276 wrote: post #61
zo1 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

The problem is that you can't run a large engineering department based on "Bob says Steve isn't that good". It just doesn't scale, that's the whole reason metrics get introduced.

You can if you know both Bob and Steve because you are their manager...

Re: NASA investigation finds Boeing hindering Americans' return to moon

#78

Post by pfdietz »

whatshisface wrote: post #50
cqqxo4zV46cp wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What “the US” did 50+ years ago has absolutely no say in what “the US” can do now.

Our GDP is about 50x higher now than it was then, in real terms.

More like a factor of 6.6.

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/GDPC1

Re: NASA investigation finds Boeing hindering Americans' return to moon

#79

Post by whatshisface »

umeshunni wrote: post #69
darth_avocado wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More than middle management, it was extreme financialization.

Lack of adequate STEM education in US schools --> more liberal arts majors --> more MBAs --> low value for engineering fundamentals and higher value for financialization --> Oh crap, MBAs can't send stuff to space?

There are an enormous number of physicists who can't find jobs now, the systemic problems are much deeper than that. In fact, I would posit that the "low standards" of highschool STEM relative to countries like India are actually due to the extraordinarily high fraction of our kids we push in that direction.

Re: NASA investigation finds Boeing hindering Americans' return to moon

#80

Post by nine_k »

quotemstr wrote: post #54
zo1 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

There's no cure though. You can't fix organizations infested with politicians. They're too entrenched. They have an advantage: you, rare competent person, have to focus on both the engineering and the organizational dynamics, whereas these creatures, since they don't believe in world of atoms outcomes, can spend 100% of their time on schemes and on getting rid of gadfly types like you. Progress depends on creative de…

So, would you prefer the space division of Boeing to crash and burn, and be replaced with something else entirely? Where would it come from? What to do with other important Boeing space contracts, like, say, X-37?
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