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Oscar Zariski was one of the founders of modern algebraic geometry

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Re: Oscar Zariski was one of the founders of modern algebraic geometry

#71

Post by cjbgkagh »

jholman wrote: post #69
cjbgkagh wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people don’t know that Lenin was sent to Russia from his Swiss exile by the Germans in a sealed diplomatic train with the express intent to induce the October revolution and end the hostilities on that front. It was done to the Russians by cynical Germans who still ended up losing WWI. Churchill deliberately courted the Russians and prevented attacks on them early on in WWII to make it easier for them to switch…

It'd be more apt to write "fomented divisions", rather than "fermented divisions".

Ah thanks, thats what I meant to write, I think a typo + autocorrect got me there

Re: Oscar Zariski was one of the founders of modern algebraic geometry

#72

Post by parpfish »

galaxyLogic wrote: post #46

For whomever might be interested in anectodes about mathematicians' personal lives: My girlfriend's family was related to https://planetmath.org/kallevaisala and she told me this story which was part of the family lore. The family and friends were having some kind of get-together celebration maybe a wedding or so and prof. Vaisala's wife had bought him a brand new suit to look good for the occasion. During the party…

Im always conflicted about stories like these.

All of the mathematicians I’ve known ARE weird - really into technicalities and finding loopholes.

But for some of them (particularly undergrad math majors)… I think the weirdness is a bit of an affectation that they adopt having heard so many stories about oddball geniuses. They fear that if they were able to behave and relate to normal people it proves that they lack the otherworldly genius they want to be know for.

Let’s also normalize genius being normal people

Re: Oscar Zariski was one of the founders of modern algebraic geometry

#73

Post by atombender »

cjbgkagh wrote: post #31
datameta wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing that puzzles me is those people who shudder at comparing Stalin's murderous spree with what Hitler's effects were. Is it the cognitive dissonance of not wanting to believe that we not only allied with a genocidal dictatorship but heavily supplied them with industrial output during the war? My family lived in the USSR and I can say for a fact - knowing it was the NKVD rather than Gestapo that might knock on…

Most people don’t know that Lenin was sent to Russia from his Swiss exile by the Germans in a sealed diplomatic train with the express intent to induce the October revolution and end the hostilities on that front. It was done to the Russians by cynical Germans who still ended up losing WWI. Churchill deliberately courted the Russians and prevented attacks on them early on in WWII to make it easier for them to switch…

You make it sound like Germany weaponised an oblivious Lenin by letting him loose on Russia. In reality, Lenin observed the February revolution from afar and realized it was a critical time to rejoin the struggle, and petitioned the German government to leave; the Germans agreed because it was strategically advantageous for them to allow dissidents to travel into Russia. The so-called "sealed" train was a cover story [1].

[1] https://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/lenin-and-the...

Re: Oscar Zariski was one of the founders of modern algebraic geometry

#74

Post by cjbgkagh »

racional wrote: post #68
cjbgkagh wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think peace could have been bought at the cost of neutrality, so sovereignty yes. I’m sure Ukraine would have been far better off with that, and there are many hundred of thousands of men who definitely would be. It is hard to discuss this with people because it appears to me that most people are divorced from reality of the war. The framing of it has been warped and anyone who strays from the NAFO line is somehow…

I think peace could have been bought at the cost of neutrality, so sovereignty yes. It's possible of course, but it's also speculative, and the window for that option is long since closed -- once Putin grabbed the Crimea and then the LNR/DNR, the "neutrality" bid fell from the table. In any case he's been quite consistent about maintaining whatever regions he's currently occupying (and likely then some, according to…

* once Putin grabbed the Crimea and then the LNR/DNR, the "neutrality" bid fell from the table

For a while it looked like Ukraine was turning the tide and they were told then not to negotiate for peace because they didn't have to - wait for an even better negotiating position. So they're told don't negotiate when you're loosing and don't negotiate when you're winning which approximate boils down to don't negotiate. Many things are possible when the alternative is losing a hugely destructive war. I.e. these things were and still remain on the table. Sure, Ukraine's not getting their land back unless they win the war but how likely is that to happen anyway.

Knowing Ukraine before the war there was already a huge Ukraine vs Russia ethnic divide that was being made worse by the Ukrainian government passing anti-Russian laws. I see Putins objectives as bringing ethnic Russians back into the fold and establishing a buffer zone. I think if a real Russia-NATO conflict broke out Russia out of necessity would turn to nukes pretty quickly - so I see this Russia-Ukraine war as less of a war of a conquest and more of a way to avoid nuking their Russian Ukrainian cousins if a full scale Russia-NATO war was to break out. They would have less qualms nuking West Ukraine as there are fewer cousins in the west so that would be free to be part of NATO.

There is the premise that Russia would not honor such an agreement of neutrality and I don't agree with that premise for a raft of reasons. If the premise that an embolden Putin will go on a concurring rampage I would have to disagree with that as well for another raft of reasons.

I don't have time to go into the whole history of it now - but I think an outcome where Ukraine splits in two where West Ukraine is a neutralized entity or absorbed into their surrounding NATO countries would have been and is still possible. Yes that would mean NATO on Russia's boarder but there is already a huge NATO boarder on Russia - that wasn't the problem.

I was looking to move to Ukraine in 2020 because I think it's a lovely country and Lviv is a lovely city. Very cheap where I could exist cheaply and spend my time reading books. It's a very corrupt country which does keep prices down but makes business difficult - but since my source of money is foreign I could effectively hide my wealth and avoid attracting attention. I decided against it because I did expect this war to break out as people were not taking Russia's warnings seriously. They had a lot of 'fixer-upper' housing that looked like they were already bombed, the housing was cheap but the problem is if you turn up with a bunch of money to fix the housing you're going catch the attention of the corrupt mobsters. I think Lviv would be an even nicer city if governed by Poland as it has been before in the not so distant past.

Re: Oscar Zariski was one of the founders of modern algebraic geometry

#75

Post by ben_w »

cjbgkagh wrote: post #74
racional wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think peace could have been bought at the cost of neutrality, so sovereignty yes. It's possible of course, but it's also speculative, and the window for that option is long since closed -- once Putin grabbed the Crimea and then the LNR/DNR, the "neutrality" bid fell from the table. In any case he's been quite consistent about maintaining whatever regions he's currently occupying (and likely then some, according to…

* once Putin grabbed the Crimea and then the LNR/DNR, the "neutrality" bid fell from the table For a while it looked like Ukraine was turning the tide and they were told then not to negotiate for peace because they didn't have to - wait for an even better negotiating position. So they're told don't negotiate when you're loosing and don't negotiate when you're winning which approximate boils down to don't negotiate. M…

The impression I have is that right now, this war is seen as existential for both Russia, Ukraine, and several EU states.

For Ukraine, they need to win by such a severe margin that Russia doesn't even think to lick its wounds, rebuild its strength, and try again.

For Russia… well, it's really about Putin. And he dares not show any sign of weakness, which would include ceding the "loss" of the territory which he has officially claimed to recognise as part of Russia.

The EU has several ex-Soviet and ex-Warsaw-pact states which openly regard a Russian victory to be an existential threat (as in "we're next"); this would remain the case regardless of what happens with NATO. But NATO does also exist, and even if the USA leaves the UK has a significant arms industry that would come in addition to that of also-EU members like France.

I don't think China cares beyond the degree to which it might take focus away from whatever it is they want to do. They seem to be quite content to rapidly ramp up their industrial capacity and general economic output, be the world's factory and hypermarket.

The west collectively is, I think, worried about escalation precisely because of the nuclear option. Our leaders want Russia to leave Ukraine in peace and recognise its sovereignty, while also itself remaining stable as it does so… which I don't think is possible, but I'd like it to be (and what do I know anyway, I'm software engineering, not international geopolitics).

Personally I suspect that the Russia nuclear arsenal is in a bad state: the main armed forces at the start of the invasion were terrible because they weren't expecting to not need to have to do more than show up, and similar logic applies to nukes.

But!

1) One small nuke is enough for a high-altitude EMP to cause severe issues.

2) I wouldn't want to risk an entire country on a dice roll.

Re: Oscar Zariski was one of the founders of modern algebraic geometry

#76

Post by racional »

cjbgkagh wrote: post #74
racional wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think peace could have been bought at the cost of neutrality, so sovereignty yes. It's possible of course, but it's also speculative, and the window for that option is long since closed -- once Putin grabbed the Crimea and then the LNR/DNR, the "neutrality" bid fell from the table. In any case he's been quite consistent about maintaining whatever regions he's currently occupying (and likely then some, according to…

* once Putin grabbed the Crimea and then the LNR/DNR, the "neutrality" bid fell from the table For a while it looked like Ukraine was turning the tide and they were told then not to negotiate for peace because they didn't have to - wait for an even better negotiating position. So they're told don't negotiate when you're loosing and don't negotiate when you're winning which approximate boils down to don't negotiate. M…

And they were told then not to negotiate for peace because they didn't have to

This is a rather condescending attitude which assumes the Ukrainians have no agency over their situation, and are just doing what their Western puppet masters tell them to do.

I was looking to move to Ukraine in 2020 because I think it's a lovely country and Lviv is a lovely city. Very cheap where I could exist cheaply and spend my time reading books. BTW it'd be an even nicer city if it were governed by Poland.

Please don't, as you plainly don't respect the country or the people living there.

If you'd prefer to live under Polish administration, try Wrocław.

Re: Oscar Zariski was one of the founders of modern algebraic geometry

#77

Post by cjbgkagh »

racional wrote: post #76
cjbgkagh wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

* once Putin grabbed the Crimea and then the LNR/DNR, the "neutrality" bid fell from the table For a while it looked like Ukraine was turning the tide and they were told then not to negotiate for peace because they didn't have to - wait for an even better negotiating position. So they're told don't negotiate when you're loosing and don't negotiate when you're winning which approximate boils down to don't negotiate. M…

And they were told then not to negotiate for peace because they didn't have to This is a rather condescending attitude which assumes the Ukrainians have no agency over their situation, and are just doing what their Western puppet masters tell them to do. I was looking to move to Ukraine in 2020 because I think it's a lovely country and Lviv is a lovely city. Very cheap where I could exist cheaply and spend my time re…

It’s not condescending it’s reality, and they’re now dealing with the consequences of that reality. What is that leftist refrain, ‘freedom of speech not freedom from consequences’. They’re exercising their sovereignty which is their right, I think better choices could have been made but that’s just my opinion.

In life we must deal with reality, the strong do what they can and the weak endure what they must. Most of us don’t get to live life from a constant position of strength and must be able to negotiate from a position of weakness which involves picking the least bad choices. The West has enjoyed an extended period of being able to negotiate from a position of strength and unfortunately the West isn’t strong enough to keep things that way. Weakness is dangerous, I wish the West was stronger, but I must deal with reality.

Re: Oscar Zariski was one of the founders of modern algebraic geometry

#78

Post by racional »

cjbgkagh wrote: post #77
racional wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And they were told then not to negotiate for peace because they didn't have to This is a rather condescending attitude which assumes the Ukrainians have no agency over their situation, and are just doing what their Western puppet masters tell them to do. I was looking to move to Ukraine in 2020 because I think it's a lovely country and Lviv is a lovely city. Very cheap where I could exist cheaply and spend my time re…

It’s not condescending it’s reality, and they’re now dealing with the consequences of that reality. What is that leftist refrain, ‘freedom of speech not freedom from consequences’. They’re exercising their sovereignty which is their right, I think better choices could have been made but that’s just my opinion. In life we must deal with reality, the strong do what they can and the weak endure what they must. Most of u…

It’s not condescending it’s reality

Sounds more like you're (uncritically) accepting the narratives put out by various sources in regard to events of the time.

I think better choices could have been made

That's very different from what you said initially.

You didn't say that the Ukrainians "decided" not to negotiate for a cease fire (meaning, to accept Putin's demands for recognized sovereignty over the occupied regions).

What you said (twice, for emphasis) was that they "were told not to".

As if they are simply incapable of making such decisions for themselves, and just do what their Western handlers tell them to do.

Re: Oscar Zariski was one of the founders of modern algebraic geometry

#79

Post by galaxyLogic »

parpfish wrote: post #72
galaxyLogic wrote: post #46

For whomever might be interested in anectodes about mathematicians' personal lives: My girlfriend's family was related to https://planetmath.org/kallevaisala and she told me this story which was part of the family lore. The family and friends were having some kind of get-together celebration maybe a wedding or so and prof. Vaisala's wife had bought him a brand new suit to look good for the occasion. During the party…

Im always conflicted about stories like these. All of the mathematicians I’ve known ARE weird - really into technicalities and finding loopholes. But for some of them (particularly undergrad math majors)… I think the weirdness is a bit of an affectation that they adopt having heard so many stories about oddball geniuses. They fear that if they were able to behave and relate to normal people it proves that they lack t…

Two physicists I think it was Bohr and Heisenberg were traveling on a train in Scotland together. Bohr looked out the train-window and said: Hey Heisenberg, look at those lambs!

Heisenberg replied: What about them?

Bohr: They are all black. Isn't that a big coincidence?

Heisenberg: Yes. At least this side of them.

I may have forgotten who this anecdote was really about, but is one story about how strange those guys can be. :-)

Re: Oscar Zariski was one of the founders of modern algebraic geometry

#80

Post by cjbgkagh »

racional wrote: post #78
cjbgkagh wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not condescending it’s reality, and they’re now dealing with the consequences of that reality. What is that leftist refrain, ‘freedom of speech not freedom from consequences’. They’re exercising their sovereignty which is their right, I think better choices could have been made but that’s just my opinion. In life we must deal with reality, the strong do what they can and the weak endure what they must. Most of u…

It’s not condescending it’s reality Sounds more like you're (uncritically) accepting the narratives put out by various sources in regard to events of the time. I think better choices could have been made That's very different from what you said initially. You didn't say that the Ukrainians "decided" not to negotiate for a cease fire (meaning, to accept Putin's demands for recognized sovereignty over the occupied regi…

The west does have a huge amount of say over Ukraine policy, the extent at which they can continue the war is completely down to western support. Without western support they would have had to either negotiate or surrender by now. Being told not to negotiate comes with the promise of support if they chose not to negotiate and Ukraine has chosen to take the West up on that promise. I’m not saying it wasn’t Ukraines choice to make. But there is no reality where Ukraine wins this war on their own without western support so this idea that they alone can chose their fate is ridiculous especially when that determination is currently being made on the battle field.
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