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CrowdStrike will be liable for damages in France, based on the OVH precedent

thehftguy.com

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Re: CrowdStrike will be liable for damages in France, based on the OVH precedent

#71
post #20
post #3

It's good to remind people that general liability waivers you often find with license agreements have no meaning outside of US jurisdiction if you're doing business in another jurisdiction.

The number of US tech businesses that are surprised they need, or think they can ignore the need, to obey employment and data protection laws when working in other jurisdictions is simply bonkers.

When working for a large US company they insisted we do not accept returns, they always were astonished that in Germany there is a law for 14 day returns, no questions asked. They could not understand that this is a law in Germany.

Re: CrowdStrike will be liable for damages in France, based on the OVH precedent

#72

Can someone explain to me why the protections that Falcon provides, are not provided by the OS itself? I am not completely naive, I've secured quite a few critical Linux servers, but with Windows it seems that there do not exist the same clear roles of security. Contrast with Red Hat or even Canonical, where is feels like I'm (correctly) fighting the security of the systems to get them into a state where my users can…

How do you actively detect a malware agent running in user space using stealth or a kernel. Authors of such are fully aware of Linux hardening like SELinux / AppArmor and work around it.

> How do you actively detect a malware agent running in user space using stealth

Depending how advanced the attacker is, check the executing binary maps back to the actual expected name and location on disk. Make sure the executable and libraries used at runtime are the correct ones matching hashes of known good qualities.

Ensure the process tree structure has an expected structure, ie "bash" isnt starting a process called apache.

Make sure the selinux policy is correct for the process that is running. (I have no idea about apparmor)

Check to see if its linking to the expected binaries, that its not using 'hidden' files (starting with a dot or directory with a dot), or deleted files.

Confirm that the process is opening sockets and files that. you expect it to (ie, apache shouldn't open files that are outside its configuration directive).

The process should not be making outgoing socket connections unless it is a client.

It should not be running with capabilities(7) that it does not require. It should not be executing from a setuid binary.

Check the process name, quite often attackers rename the running executable, so you'll see /proc/pid/cmdline renamed with a bunch of null bytes at the end.

Some malware has 'anti debugging' tactics, ie, they have traced themselves to prevent you tracing them, you can find this as one of the lines in /proc/pid/status iirc.

There are more, but thats the few off the top of my head.

> or a kernel.

This is a MUCH harder problem, because attackers can always disable any security mechanism assuming they kernel code execution. However, assuming they are not too focused..

If the system is booting in secureboot mode, it should be enabled, and no extra / unused / out of date kernel modules loaded.

I know that code injection at the memory level means that attackers can inject unsigned code, so in this case you would want to periodically sample the code and ensure that execution context would only have the processers EIP in known areas where the kernel would map executable code. You could do an additional check to see if the areas are mapped by userspace processes (it might be too late) so you can find offending attackers.

If the host is virtualized, this becomes easier to do and mapping and comparing memory from the guest kernel for the executable code sections means that its harder for an attacker to work around by being able to disable a mechanism.

Usually attacker kernel exploits do not persist long temr in kernel space, (they abuse kernel space to allow for userspace privilege escalation ie make a binary setuid or modify permissions on a /dev/) because the longer they are there the more likely they are to panic the system.

Some of the more advanced attacks I have seen are from people uploading system kernel panic images, where I have a 'snapshot' of the running system and can work around attackers mitigation techniques.

Re: CrowdStrike will be liable for damages in France, based on the OVH precedent

#73

The 10$ gift cards were just hilarious. How could they possibly expect anyone to take them seriously?

I read somewhere that the 10$ gift card was for crowdstrike partners who are working to fix the issue, and not it's customers.

Re: CrowdStrike will be liable for damages in France, based on the OVH precedent

#74
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The number of US tech businesses that are surprised they need, or think they can ignore the need, to obey employment and data protection laws when working in other jurisdictions is simply bonkers.

It's not unusual in the US to assume the US are the only planet in the universe.

[deleted]

Re: CrowdStrike will be liable for damages in France, based on the OVH precedent

#75
post #15
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>- Is it reasonable to grant such privilege access to a piece of software that ultimately is a black box ? As I said in the previous thread: explaining to execs that giving root to someone on your machines means they have root is a very difficult concept for them to understand.

Then the exec should be held responsible?

The exec just follows the instructions provided by their CISO, who adheres to the information security standards used in audits.

These standards are influenced not only by actual threats but also by lobbying from Endpoint Detection and Response (EDR) systems like SentinelOne and Crowdstrike. For instance, in 2021, the White House issued Executive Order 14028, which mandates the Federal Government to implement a robust EDR solution. Consequently, standards such as those from NIST and ISO27001 have increasingly emphasized malware detection and response.

When onboarding any large enterprise, you will encounter these requirements before the enterprise can proceed with procuring your service. This compels B2B organizations to implement this software to be successful.

^1 https://www.opensecrets.org/federal-lobbying/clients/summary...

^2 https://www.opensecrets.org/federal-lobbying/clients/summary...

Re: CrowdStrike will be liable for damages in France, based on the OVH precedent

#76
post #51

Surely, there must be a gigantic number of claimants already taking to their lawyers about how to get compensation? Not just in France but across the planet? I wonder how this kind of thing is organised, since there's all these jurisdictions.

"I wonder how this kind of thing is organised, since there's all these jurisdictions." In theory simple. Crowdstrike is doing buisness in state X, so compensation claims will be settled in court in state X. So lots of courts and lawers all around the world, will be quite busy for some time with the case.

It's a B2B tool, which means it's quite likely the contract/license states that all disputes are to be settled in a court appointed by them. This is not valid for consumer disputes, but businesses are free to do what they want. Perhaps this will let them off the hook?

OVH is different in that it's actually a French company.

Re: CrowdStrike will be liable for damages in France, based on the OVH precedent

#77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not unusual in the US to assume the US are the only planet in the universe.

You mean self declared (rightfully or wrongfully) leaders of the free world? :)

There's a documentary about exactly that: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0372588/ :)

Re: CrowdStrike will be liable for damages in France, based on the OVH precedent

#78
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you actively detect a malware agent running in user space using stealth or a kernel. Authors of such are fully aware of Linux hardening like SELinux / AppArmor and work around it.

> How do you actively detect a malware agent running in user space using stealth or a kernel. You start with correct design. The system has a root of trust (ideally you skip the insane level of complexity that is Secure Boot + TPM and use something simple, testable, and verifiable — this isn’t actually that hard). Only authorized images will boot, and, more importantly, nothing else on the network trusts the machine…

What you've answered is a great (if not the best) way to defend against attackers, but not what was asked,They asked how to detect.

I'll strongly disagree on selinux, I have seen it work in practice to defeat attackers many times, that provide features that seccomp and cgroups etc do not.

Re: CrowdStrike will be liable for damages in France, based on the OVH precedent

#79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Likely not by the people who make the decisions to purchase this. They're usually hearing more from the marketing/sales people than from those actually having to deal with this. Personally, I don't expect this to make much of a difference, if any.

> Personally, I don't expect this to make much of a difference, if any. While you're probably right, I'm hoping ClownStrike's court results so absolutely dwarf their insurance coverage that it's nearly company ending. ie something to actually get them to improve things, not just generate empty PR platitudes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiL2AjOtjZI

Meh. We (techies) always knew the risks of running random crap in kernel space, especially when it runs junk it downloads from the internet.

So, I expect this to be spun somehow along the lines of "sure all our boxes were down, but look, you've brought them all back up, didn't you? Now think about all the bad guys this protects us against! Of course the risk was worth it!". Also, "everybody does this! we couldn't have known!"

"security people" are scared shitless of the whole "the world is ending! there are threats everywhere!" discourse that vendors peddle. The less technical, the more scared they are.

Many of these people don't really understand what they're talking about and what compromises their decisions actually imply. Losing a day of work is simply dwarfed by "all your data is gone!".

Re: CrowdStrike will be liable for damages in France, based on the OVH precedent

#80
post #51

Surely, there must be a gigantic number of claimants already taking to their lawyers about how to get compensation? Not just in France but across the planet? I wonder how this kind of thing is organised, since there's all these jurisdictions.

"I wonder how this kind of thing is organised, since there's all these jurisdictions." In theory simple. Crowdstrike is doing buisness in state X, so compensation claims will be settled in court in state X. So lots of courts and lawers all around the world, will be quite busy for some time with the case.

I cannot see how they will get over this... It's CIO snakeoil to begin with, but this was not a simple mistake; it shows the entire lack of process and responsibility.
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