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Ties between Google's Project Nimbus and Israel's military

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Re: Ties between Google's Project Nimbus and Israel's military

#71

Post by racional »

runarberg wrote: post #70
raxxorraxor wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even before the existence of Israel there was an active arabic nationalism and Jews were discriminated against. Israel is not a colonial power. The British split the land between Muslims and Jews. The only problem is that some pushing for Arab nationalism couldn't stomach the existence of Israel or Jews in general. The land Israel was founded wasn't prosperous at all, on the contrary. Many years of cultivation made i…

> The land Israel was founded wasn't prosperous at all, on the contrary. Many years of cultivation made it the place it is today. This belief demonstrates either a fundamental ignorance or a deep disrespect for this land and the people who have lived there for thousands of years. There was—and still is—a major olive industry. It is not a coincident that Israeli settler terrorist target and destroy olive plantations f…

More to the point -- the land was plenty "prosperous" to the people who lived there. Whatever uses for that land that outsiders deem to be prosperous (for them) are completely irrelevant.

Re: Ties between Google's Project Nimbus and Israel's military

#72

Post by dunekid »

runarberg wrote: post #70
raxxorraxor wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even before the existence of Israel there was an active arabic nationalism and Jews were discriminated against. Israel is not a colonial power. The British split the land between Muslims and Jews. The only problem is that some pushing for Arab nationalism couldn't stomach the existence of Israel or Jews in general. The land Israel was founded wasn't prosperous at all, on the contrary. Many years of cultivation made i…

> The land Israel was founded wasn't prosperous at all, on the contrary. Many years of cultivation made it the place it is today. This belief demonstrates either a fundamental ignorance or a deep disrespect for this land and the people who have lived there for thousands of years. There was—and still is—a major olive industry. It is not a coincident that Israeli settler terrorist target and destroy olive plantations f…

Gaza has been an an important port in the east mediterranean. As you would expect any shoreline in the mediterranean to have trade and cultural vibrancy. https://youtu.be/QUCeQt8zg5o?feature=shared

Re: Ties between Google's Project Nimbus and Israel's military

#73

Post by raxxorraxor »

racional wrote: post #69
raxxorraxor wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even before the existence of Israel there was an active arabic nationalism and Jews were discriminated against. Israel is not a colonial power. The British split the land between Muslims and Jews. The only problem is that some pushing for Arab nationalism couldn't stomach the existence of Israel or Jews in general. The land Israel was founded wasn't prosperous at all, on the contrary. Many years of cultivation made i…

Looks like we disagree axiomatically about certain things. But life is short, so I'll just respond to one particular item for now: The only problem is that some pushing for Arab nationalism couldn't stomach the existence of Israel or Jews in general. No, the "only problem" was a bunch of armed foreigners attempting to carve an ethnostate out of their ancestral territory. They could have been Greek, Italian, Russian,…

We do indeed disagree on premises. Arab nationalism was first founded in the 19th century and directed against Turks. Later it had other ambitions of course. And yes, the idea was the foundation of an ethnostate. Pretty much was you accuse Israel of being, while it simply is not true.

Re: Ties between Google's Project Nimbus and Israel's military

#74

Post by runarberg »

raxxorraxor wrote: post #73
racional wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Looks like we disagree axiomatically about certain things. But life is short, so I'll just respond to one particular item for now: The only problem is that some pushing for Arab nationalism couldn't stomach the existence of Israel or Jews in general. No, the "only problem" was a bunch of armed foreigners attempting to carve an ethnostate out of their ancestral territory. They could have been Greek, Italian, Russian,…

We do indeed disagree on premises. Arab nationalism was first founded in the 19th century and directed against Turks. Later it had other ambitions of course. And yes, the idea was the foundation of an ethnostate. Pretty much was you accuse Israel of being, while it simply is not true.

This narrative is ahistorical. The nationalism movements of the 19th century were all over the world, and against most empires, not just the Ottomans. So the new found Arab nationalism was new, just like Serbian or Greek nationalism was new, we also had a new found Irish nationalism and even Icelandic nationalism in the 19th century. Even zionism started as a 19th century ideology.

Nor was the nationalism movements of the 19th century necessary a call for an ethnostate. It was first and foremost a call against empires and for own governments over own nation states. When there were calls for ethno-demographic policies to maintain a supremacy of one ethnicity over others, those were aside policies which differed among proponents of nationalism. These policies were equally—if not more—prominent among empires, than nation states. Even among zionists, only a portion of the original 19th century zionists actually wanted to displace Palestinians (or other indigenous populations of wherever they would establish the jewish state) upon migration. That is only a portion of zionists wanted an ethnostate.

So no, nationalists of the 19th century—arabs, europeans, and others—did not necessarily want an ethnostate.

EDIT: That all said, it is a bit odd to excuse a very real and existing ethnostate, by citing a theoretical ethnostate which never actually existed and at best had very limited support among the public and rulers at the time.

Re: Ties between Google's Project Nimbus and Israel's military

#75

Post by raxxorraxor »

runarberg wrote: post #74
raxxorraxor wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We do indeed disagree on premises. Arab nationalism was first founded in the 19th century and directed against Turks. Later it had other ambitions of course. And yes, the idea was the foundation of an ethnostate. Pretty much was you accuse Israel of being, while it simply is not true.

This narrative is ahistorical. The nationalism movements of the 19th century were all over the world, and against most empires, not just the Ottomans. So the new found Arab nationalism was new, just like Serbian or Greek nationalism was new, we also had a new found Irish nationalism and even Icelandic nationalism in the 19th century. Even zionism started as a 19th century ideology. Nor was the nationalism movements o…

It is neither a narrative nor ahistorical in contrast to your claims. A 10 minute walk through Israel would significantly deny your suggestion about it being an ethnostate.

That isn't some misinformation on your part, it is just a malicious lie.

Re: Ties between Google's Project Nimbus and Israel's military

#76

Post by racional »

raxxorraxor wrote: post #75
runarberg wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This narrative is ahistorical. The nationalism movements of the 19th century were all over the world, and against most empires, not just the Ottomans. So the new found Arab nationalism was new, just like Serbian or Greek nationalism was new, we also had a new found Irish nationalism and even Icelandic nationalism in the 19th century. Even zionism started as a 19th century ideology. Nor was the nationalism movements o…

It is neither a narrative nor ahistorical in contrast to your claims. A 10 minute walk through Israel would significantly deny your suggestion about it being an ethnostate. That isn't some misinformation on your part, it is just a malicious lie.

A 10 minute walk through Israel ...

"But the dominant group in Israel has internal diversity; therefore it can't be the dominant group" -- is that the counterargument, here?

Re: Ties between Google's Project Nimbus and Israel's military

#77

Post by raxxorraxor »

racional wrote: post #76
raxxorraxor wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is neither a narrative nor ahistorical in contrast to your claims. A 10 minute walk through Israel would significantly deny your suggestion about it being an ethnostate. That isn't some misinformation on your part, it is just a malicious lie.

A 10 minute walk through Israel ... "But the dominant group in Israel has internal diversity; therefore it can't be the dominant group" -- is that the counterargument, here?

No, that would be contradiction. Do you try to imply that a country having a "dominant group" is something that would form an ethnostate?

Perhaps I lazily assumed the parent would refer to ethnicity when throwing the accusation of an ethnostate around? Which ethnicity would that refer to in your opinion? It should be possible to answer that question if the accusation is in any way substantial.

Some ethnicities (and religions for that matter) might have serious problems in the wider region. Many do flee to Israel for safety in that case. That is the reality here and I would say that this fact is pretty hard to dispute without pointing fingers at less fortunate circumstances that maybe lead to less tolerance than there is in Israel.

Re: Ties between Google's Project Nimbus and Israel's military

#78

Post by racional »

raxxorraxor wrote: post #77
racional wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A 10 minute walk through Israel ... "But the dominant group in Israel has internal diversity; therefore it can't be the dominant group" -- is that the counterargument, here?

No, that would be contradiction. Do you try to imply that a country having a "dominant group" is something that would form an ethnostate? Perhaps I lazily assumed the parent would refer to ethnicity when throwing the accusation of an ethnostate around? Which ethnicity would that refer to in your opinion? It should be possible to answer that question if the accusation is in any way substantial. Some ethnicities (and r…

That a country having a "dominant group" is something that would form an ethnostate?

Of course the fact of one group being dominant is not sufficient; there need to be deeply structural (legal) mechanisms in place for that group to maintain its dominance, which has certainly been the case with Israel since its very founding.

You may consult the definitions in Wikipedia as to "ethnostate" and "ethnic group" for further detail if you wish.

Which ethnicity would that refer to in your opinion?

The one referred to in Sections 1, 5, 6 and 7 (and whose language is given preferential treatment in Section 4) of the Nation State Bill.

Re: Ties between Google's Project Nimbus and Israel's military

#79

Post by runarberg »

racional wrote: post #78
raxxorraxor wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, that would be contradiction. Do you try to imply that a country having a "dominant group" is something that would form an ethnostate? Perhaps I lazily assumed the parent would refer to ethnicity when throwing the accusation of an ethnostate around? Which ethnicity would that refer to in your opinion? It should be possible to answer that question if the accusation is in any way substantial. Some ethnicities (and r…

That a country having a "dominant group" is something that would form an ethnostate? Of course the fact of one group being dominant is not sufficient; there need to be deeply structural (legal) mechanisms in place for that group to maintain its dominance, which has certainly been the case with Israel since its very founding. You may consult the definitions in Wikipedia as to "ethnostate" and "ethnic group" for furthe…

Related, Database of discriminatory laws in Israel:

https://www.adalah.org/en/law/index

Regarding the myth of a diverse legislator negating an ethnostate, this is easily disprooven by looking at the legislator of unambiguous ethnostates of history. Even Rhodesia had a way more diverse legislator than today’s Israel.

Re: Ties between Google's Project Nimbus and Israel's military

#80

Post by raxxorraxor »

racional wrote: post #78
raxxorraxor wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, that would be contradiction. Do you try to imply that a country having a "dominant group" is something that would form an ethnostate? Perhaps I lazily assumed the parent would refer to ethnicity when throwing the accusation of an ethnostate around? Which ethnicity would that refer to in your opinion? It should be possible to answer that question if the accusation is in any way substantial. Some ethnicities (and r…

That a country having a "dominant group" is something that would form an ethnostate? Of course the fact of one group being dominant is not sufficient; there need to be deeply structural (legal) mechanisms in place for that group to maintain its dominance, which has certainly been the case with Israel since its very founding. You may consult the definitions in Wikipedia as to "ethnostate" and "ethnic group" for furthe…

There is no article about an ethnostate but if you use the widest possible definition of ethnicity and this ethnicity forming a common state would be considered an ethnostate, I guess Israel would be an ethnostate too. As probably most if not all other countries in the world as well. What would your criticism of that be specifically?

Again, minorities often try to flee to Israel for different reasons, not the other way around. This is easy to observe.

Then Syria is an ethnostate as it is called the Syrian Arab Republic. Egypt is an ethnostate, as it is called the Arab Republic of Egypt. I believe the pattern is obvious?

I cannot shake the feeling that some might utter this criticism because in case of Israel it would likely be a Jewish majority nation. But the existence and political participation of non-Jews makes it clear that you try to use ethnostate differently.

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