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Short-term rentals disrupting SF housing market

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Re: Short-term rentals disrupting SF housing market

#71

Post by tptacek »

Zak wrote: post #64
tptacek wrote: post #10

Much of the criticism of Airbnb in this article seems to stem from renters "subletting" their apartments to vacationers. Why does Airbnb allow renters to list their apartments on Airbnb at all? In virtually no case does a renter have a lease that permits Airbnb-style listings; the boilerplate lease that virtually everyone works from requires landlord approval for each subletter. It seems unconscionable to rent an apa…

Why does Airbnb allow renters to list their apartments on Airbnb at all? What is the incentive for Airbnb to check? Even assuming most listers do have the legal right to do so, checking in a way that isn't easily gamed would be time-consuming and expensive. It's pretty obvious why they don't do that; it would put them out of business. Was this a rhetorical question meant to make the point "Airbnb is bad"?

I said I liked Airbnb, so you can safely assume that no point I raise is a cryptic barb at them.

I think Airbnb has no incentive right now to try to ensure that listings are legitimate or authorized, and that that's a problem.

Re: Short-term rentals disrupting SF housing market

#72

Post by tptacek »

lkrubner wrote: post #68
tptacek wrote: post #10

Much of the criticism of Airbnb in this article seems to stem from renters "subletting" their apartments to vacationers. Why does Airbnb allow renters to list their apartments on Airbnb at all? In virtually no case does a renter have a lease that permits Airbnb-style listings; the boilerplate lease that virtually everyone works from requires landlord approval for each subletter. It seems unconscionable to rent an apa…

I will offer a counter-example to tptacek's argument: For 18 months (till April) I lived at 16 Waverly Avenue in Brooklyn, New York. I never signed a lease. The landlord did not care about a thing, so long as I paid the rent on the time. In that building, sub-letting apartments is common. The landlord is an older Hasidic Jewish gentleman, and his attitude toward renters is fairly common among the Jewish landlords who…

And in cases like that, I don't see much of a problem with Airbnb. I'd just add that cases like that aren't the norm.

Re: Short-term rentals disrupting SF housing market

#73

Post by tptacek »

netcan wrote: post #55
tptacek wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The classifieds don't provide comprehensive listings of short-term vacation rentals. But I'm not saying Airbnb "needs" to deal with it. I'm saying they "should" decline listings from people who don't own their property absent some documentation of consent from the landlord of that property.

I'm not going to pretend I understand all the issues here but would you really want to be half pregnant here? I mean their users are violating all sorts of little laws in thousands of jurisdictions (all the cities/towns/counties/provinces/etc.) all over the world. In some cases this is bad form in some cases that's how BNBs work. I have a sort of feeling that it's better to take the "not my job" approach here rather…

Yeah, the "half pregnant" point here is probably really good; Airbnb is probably in a terrible bind here.

Re: Short-term rentals disrupting SF housing market

#74

Post by _delirium »

rexreed wrote: post #42
primigenus wrote: post #16

Two of my coworkers are in SF right now for WWDC, having flown there from Europe, and their AirBnB host was just handed an eviction notice for subletting - they have to leave immediately. So this article feels extremely ... timely. And I'll be in SF in 2 weeks for Google IO, also staying with an AirBnB host. Not the kind of article I want to read before flying out there :-)

Having had this happen once, my only advice is to find hosts on AirBnB that own their properties. I know, not the majority for SF city, but there are quite a few home owners who are in control of their property and thus not under a tenant agreement. They might later have to pay the piper with regards to the city, but that's a much harder bone to pick. If you want references for property owners in San Fran or near by…

I wonder if people who own their own properties could gain a modest advantage by mentioning that in the AirBnB listing. Possibly not enough AirBnB users know about or are worried about the distinction, but I'd personally be more willing to rent from someone if the description assured me that it wasn't an unauthorized-sublet type situation.

Re: Short-term rentals disrupting SF housing market

#75

Post by ThomPete »

TylerE wrote: post #66
ThomPete wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's inconsistent that is what it is.

No, it's not. Do you really not understand how basic retail economics works? Are you expecting someone to buy high and sell low? As you yourself proved, if people will pay it, that's what the market rate is. Think it's extortionate? Don't pay it and make other arrangements.

Whats up with the attitude?

This is not a guy who buy high and sell low. This is a guy who have a room in his own apartment where he cramped a kitchenette in and call it a studio (not mentioning that)

Since I couldn't go and see it before where does that leave me?

You are assuming that I had sufficient information before I moved in. I didn't.

Re: Short-term rentals disrupting SF housing market

#76

Post by rexreed »

_delirium wrote: post #74
rexreed wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having had this happen once, my only advice is to find hosts on AirBnB that own their properties. I know, not the majority for SF city, but there are quite a few home owners who are in control of their property and thus not under a tenant agreement. They might later have to pay the piper with regards to the city, but that's a much harder bone to pick. If you want references for property owners in San Fran or near by…

I wonder if people who own their own properties could gain a modest advantage by mentioning that in the AirBnB listing. Possibly not enough AirBnB users know about or are worried about the distinction, but I'd personally be more willing to rent from someone if the description assured me that it wasn't an unauthorized-sublet type situation.

That's a great idea. Perhaps in addition to specifying what type of space is available for rent (right now the options are whole house / apartment / room, etc.), hosts should also specify what the property type is:

* Rented apartment subject to tenant agreement * Owned condominium in multi-condo building * Shared townhome * Time-shared Vacation property * Rented detached home * Owned single family property

Something like that. Not sure what the categories would be, but it would be similar to what you see when you are looking to rent or buy real estate.

Then people can decide whether or not it meets their risk profile.

Re: Short-term rentals disrupting SF housing market

#77

Post by _delirium »

tomkarlo wrote: post #60
jseliger wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article has one other howler: "But others, encouraged by lax oversight and lucrative payoffs, use the rental sites to run ad-hoc hotels, which besides annoying neighbors, takes long-term rentals off a market that desperately needs them. . ." San Francisco has also made it virtually impossible to build new housing units ( http://www.slate.com/articles/business/moneybox/2012/05/face... ). If the city needs more hou…

This... there was also a recent NYT article about how new workers moving to SF are displacing existing residents by competing for apartment rentals. Having thousands of new residents moving into a city should be viewed as an opportunity, not a problem, especially considering the budget issues out here. SF needs to stop obstructing new construction and allow for more vertical residential housing like New York and othe…

There's been quite a bit of new housing added in the past decade or two, hasn't there? A bunch of SoMa has undergone semi-recent conversions from industrial to residential use, and there've been several large condo buildings going up (Millennium Tower, Infinity, One Rincon Hill, Paramount), as well as hotel/condo combinations (Four Seasons, St. Regis Museum Tower).

Re: Short-term rentals disrupting SF housing market

#78

Post by TylerE »

ThomPete wrote: post #75
TylerE wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's not. Do you really not understand how basic retail economics works? Are you expecting someone to buy high and sell low? As you yourself proved, if people will pay it, that's what the market rate is. Think it's extortionate? Don't pay it and make other arrangements.

Whats up with the attitude? This is not a guy who buy high and sell low. This is a guy who have a room in his own apartment where he cramped a kitchenette in and call it a studio (not mentioning that) Since I couldn't go and see it before where does that leave me? You are assuming that I had sufficient information before I moved in. I didn't.

Housing in NYC is expensive. Frankly, it's like whining that Porsche won't sell you a 911 for Miata money, and that furthermore, the car rental agency charges the equivilant of a monthly payment for just one week! Stop the presses...

Re: Short-term rentals disrupting SF housing market

#79

Post by ThomPete »

tomkarlo wrote: post #63
ThomPete wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is. right now I am looking at a 1BR appartment completely modern building, rooftop, open kitchen the works for 3600USD. There are many places on AirBnB that have simply pumped up the prices to make a living and since there is not negative feedback mechanism everyone just charges more and more. Craigslist yeah i tried that, i enden up with mostly scams and bait and switch guys.

You can't compare AirBnB to an apartment rental, especially in NY where two months down is not uncommon. Seems like it's more appropriate to compare it to a hotel room... in which case $110 a night is a steal.

For 110, in a hotel, I get cleaned every day, breakfast and I don't pay until I leave and I don't pay a deposit.

With AirBnB i pay 500USD in deposit, pay on arrival, it gets cleaned when I move out. Everything else is on me.

And I can compare it because I stay there longer than just a few days also AirBnB now have a sublet section. Again go compare those prices with for instance the prices on streeteasy.

Re: Short-term rentals disrupting SF housing market

#80

Post by dllthomas »

tptacek wrote: post #10

Much of the criticism of Airbnb in this article seems to stem from renters "subletting" their apartments to vacationers. Why does Airbnb allow renters to list their apartments on Airbnb at all? In virtually no case does a renter have a lease that permits Airbnb-style listings; the boilerplate lease that virtually everyone works from requires landlord approval for each subletter. It seems unconscionable to rent an apa…

Checking the credit of the tenant is about the landlord worrying they won't get paid. This is entirely unrelated to the tenant's relationship with a potential subletter.

The rest of your post stands, though - landlords have a valid concern for the condition of the apartment, disruption of other tenants, &c.

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