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Low salary likely to cause exodus of European tech talent

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Re: Low salary likely to cause exodus of European tech talent

#71

Post by constantcrying »

acdha wrote: post #43
constantcrying wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are completely delusional about the US. They have healthcare as well, you know, they just pay it from their paycheck and it isn't deducted from their salary. >homelessness In Germany the state guarantees you housing. Yet it has a far bigger homelessness problem than the US.

> They have healthcare as well, you know, they just pay it from their paycheck and it isn't deducted from their salary. This usually cancels out the lower tax rates, and it has some key drawbacks: if anything interferes with your ability to stay employed, you lose coverage completely and have to hope that you’ll eventually qualify for public assistance, which can take quite a long time and will likely force you to fi…

>This usually cancels out the lower tax rates

Directly contradicts "The costs are 2-3 times higher". Especially not since a software dev makes significantly more money.

Re: Low salary likely to cause exodus of European tech talent

#72

Post by RestlessMind »

constantcrying wrote: post #12

Why would you move to Saudi Arabia if you can move to the US? Certainly if I had any inclination to move my target would be the US, high salaries, low taxes, wide range of companies, can choose climate/geography and even political leaning of area, etc. I have been to Dubai, it was one of the worst places I have ever been to. Extremely unpleasant climate, revolting atmosphere of completely incoherent architecture, eve…

> Why would you move to Saudi Arabia if you can move to the US?

Maybe some of those Europeans are from Russia or Belarus, and are not welcomed in the US.

Re: Low salary likely to cause exodus of European tech talent

#73

Post by RestlessMind »

janice1999 wrote: post #26
HillRat wrote: post #8

The underlying thesis of the article is that high salaries in the Gulf will outweigh the downsides of working in low-rule-of-law authoritarian states with onerously rigid managerial and social structures, which ... might work out for some folks, but if you haven't worked with Gulf-domiciled companies before I wouldn't recommend signing a long-term contract before testing out those waters.

> might work out for some folks If by folks, you mean straight men... because I sure as hell wouldn't consider moving if I was gay or a woman. Just this week Ireland had to pressure UAE to return an Irish woman who authorities imprisoned for "attempting suicide" after she was injured because of domestic violence. https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/2024/07/10/dubai-drops-at...

> If by folks, you mean straight men

Straight men account for a large portion of workforce. So might not be a bad strategy for UAE / SA to lure those.

Re: Low salary likely to cause exodus of European tech talent

#74

Post by RestlessMind »

j7ake wrote: post #46
dexwiz wrote: post #44

Question for European workers: Do you feel that social services help close some of that gap in pay? Raising a kid in the USA has become massively expensive. Health care costs, education costs, child care costs means parents can easily spent 50-100k a year on children alone. My partner wants to move to the Netherlands, but it would mean a massive pay cut for me long term. Their argument is that children will be cheape…

If you want more than 2 kids it’s rarely feasible in USA, but not an issue for Europe. No kids, USA hands down. One kid, comparable. Two kids, Europe looks better but USA is still possible. Three kids, you need free childcare somewhere to make it work. Remember that it is 50 to 100k in after expenses, so at highest tax bracket you need to make almost double that to pay for childcare. Finally, work culture in Europe i…

My personal experience - most of the USA (generally suburbs) is very cheap to have multiple kids. Houses are bigger. Cars are bigger. Schools are free. Food and clothes are cheap. Plenty of parks, libraries and sports facilities nearby.

Re: Low salary likely to cause exodus of European tech talent

#75

Post by RestlessMind »

devwastaken wrote: post #21

Exodus to where? U.S. isn't hiring, and even when they are you're living in broken cities in one of the most corrupt capital markets in the world. Whatever job you get a visa for is indentured servitude. The vast majority of people are not going to uproot, because living in a sane country with sustainable long term employment more than pays for itself.

Only a few US cities, and that too a few bad areas, are broken. Most Americans live in suburbs which are doing fine.

Re: Low salary likely to cause exodus of European tech talent

#76

Post by hamilyon2 »

dexwiz wrote: post #44

Question for European workers: Do you feel that social services help close some of that gap in pay? Raising a kid in the USA has become massively expensive. Health care costs, education costs, child care costs means parents can easily spent 50-100k a year on children alone. My partner wants to move to the Netherlands, but it would mean a massive pay cut for me long term. Their argument is that children will be cheape…

I have a very unique experience. Without diving into details, French health care system welcomed and supported and provided very long, sophisticated and expensive care. I really mean a lot. All for unremarkable insurance (mutuelle) 100€ per month.

Mandatory social insurance, basically my taxes, paid for bulk of it.

High level of professionalism, high standard of care, very little red tape and no unreasonable waiting.

Out of pocket it is usually close to zero.

Re: Low salary likely to cause exodus of European tech talent

#77

Post by glimshe »

j7ake wrote: post #46
dexwiz wrote: post #44

Question for European workers: Do you feel that social services help close some of that gap in pay? Raising a kid in the USA has become massively expensive. Health care costs, education costs, child care costs means parents can easily spent 50-100k a year on children alone. My partner wants to move to the Netherlands, but it would mean a massive pay cut for me long term. Their argument is that children will be cheape…

If you want more than 2 kids it’s rarely feasible in USA, but not an issue for Europe. No kids, USA hands down. One kid, comparable. Two kids, Europe looks better but USA is still possible. Three kids, you need free childcare somewhere to make it work. Remember that it is 50 to 100k in after expenses, so at highest tax bracket you need to make almost double that to pay for childcare. Finally, work culture in Europe i…

As a parent in the US, I find these stereotypes kind of hilarious.

I have many European friends here who say they won't go back to Europe (Germany, England, Belgium) because of the costs of owning a house and having a family.

Software Engineer salaries range from middle to upper class in US terms. While it's not necessarily easy to have kids in the low end of the range, I'd say it's not too hard either and I know many people who do it (even in California).

But hey, for those who think and keep repeating in public that the US is a crime-ridden wasteland where you have no healthcare, no work life-balance and can't have kids: just don't come here and the problem is solved. Interestingly, TFA is exactly about the European exodus... to Arab countries, of all places.

Re: Low salary likely to cause exodus of European tech talent

#78

Post by acdha »

constantcrying wrote: post #71
acdha wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They have healthcare as well, you know, they just pay it from their paycheck and it isn't deducted from their salary. This usually cancels out the lower tax rates, and it has some key drawbacks: if anything interferes with your ability to stay employed, you lose coverage completely and have to hope that you’ll eventually qualify for public assistance, which can take quite a long time and will likely force you to fi…

>This usually cancels out the lower tax rates Directly contradicts "The costs are 2-3 times higher". Especially not since a software dev makes significantly more money.

No. These aren’t measuring the same thing: the higher costs in the United States means that you cannot buy private plans which are as efficient as the national plans because you are also paying for the overhead of various providers and middlemen which only exist in one of these models, and you have limited ability to negotiate better prices or even visibility.

Software developers make somewhat more money but not enough so for this not to be a concern. If you’re getting hundreds of thousands of dollars more, of course, it’s a net win but if you’re not seeing such a stark difference it’s more debatable. If you’re not at the higher FAANG-tier level, costs for things like health and child care can close the gap considerably, especially if you or your family have less than perfect health and so the US option involves an unpaid second job haggling with insurance companies about coverage.

Re: Low salary likely to cause exodus of European tech talent

#79

Post by decafninja »

cooolbear wrote: post #9
decafninja wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Frankly speaking, European healthcare does not seem that attractive to me versus decent to good employer backed American insurance. I’d rather have a (often significantly) bigger US salary. If there is a healthcare system that I’m envious of, it’s those of some East Asian countries. I know of some Asian-Americans in the US that do medical tourism to Asia despite having company insurance. Ends up being not only less e…

Aside from the usury of US healthcare, even with insurance from your employer, dealing with the healthcare in Canada is a dream to the US. You might have to wait to see a doctor (most people probably still have to wait in the US if you're lucky enough to get treatment), but there's essentially no fight with layers and layers of occult insurance for anything you get a referral from a doctor for. No surprise or hidden…

Then why are there stories of Canadians crossing the border to seek care in the US?

I work with some Canadians in Toronto. They’re always complaining how terribly slow and inefficient their healthcare system is.

I am by no means defending the US healthcare system as good. It’s not - it’s terrible.

I just wish that those here that want to see it improved/reformed would look across the Pacific, not the Atlantic (or the northern border) for what a truly good healthcare system looks like.

Re: Low salary likely to cause exodus of European tech talent

#80

Post by TheLoafOfBread »

RestlessMind wrote: post #72
constantcrying wrote: post #12

Why would you move to Saudi Arabia if you can move to the US? Certainly if I had any inclination to move my target would be the US, high salaries, low taxes, wide range of companies, can choose climate/geography and even political leaning of area, etc. I have been to Dubai, it was one of the worst places I have ever been to. Extremely unpleasant climate, revolting atmosphere of completely incoherent architecture, eve…

> Why would you move to Saudi Arabia if you can move to the US? Maybe some of those Europeans are from Russia or Belarus, and are not welcomed in the US.

Or just because getting visa to US is kafquese style difficult.
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