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Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

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Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#71

Post by constantcrying »

cycomanic wrote: post #54
constantcrying wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If they know they face prison if the company plays foul in a major way, they will put pressure on their deputies to change culture. It is completely ridiculous to criminally prosecute leadership for crimes which happened without their knowing/consent/acknowledgment. It would be a perversion of justice to jail someone because many levels down someone else committed a crime. The best corporate culture does not prevent…

Well what are the ridiculously high salaries for if they don't even take responsibility. I mean parents are liable for their children, so why should a CEO not be made responsible for the culture of the corporation underneath them?

Because that would be a perversion of justice. You can not pay someone to take on criminal liability for crimes they didn't commit and could not have any knowledge of. Just imagine what precedent this would set if it was allowed. If courts would accept that criminal liability can be transferred in exchange of cash, how would the justice system look like?

"Culture" is completely ephemeral and having a court of law determine that the CEO "caused" some change in culture which then caused criminal behavior is ridiculous. This obviously can not be proven "beyond a reasonable doubt".

>I mean parents are liable for their children

Parents do not take on the crimes of their children. They are criminally liable for not overseeing their children's action and/or for not preventing their actions, which is something totally different.

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#72

Post by lupusreal »

constantcrying wrote: post #38
TulliusCicero wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could also just send a lot of people to jail. One of the problems here is that a lot of the time, the worst thing that happens to an individual from the company is just that they get fired. That's just not a very strong deterrent when the upside if you don't get caught is potentially huge raises/promotions/bonuses. Imagine if the worst thing that could happen to you when robbing banks if you get caught is just th…

Proving something like criminal negligence is extremely hard. The supply chain of software in aerospace is extremely long and finding out who exactly was acting negligent is near impossible.

The supply chain is long but it's supposed to have exceptionally detailed documentation. Follow that document trail and start prosecuting people when those documents start turning sour, because not documenting the work properly is a crime in itself.

This won't be sufficient to fix Boeing, but it would be a start.

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#73

Post by lupusreal »

immibis wrote: post #65
lupusreal wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you even "change management culture" without punishing people who are innocent of any crime other than being a manager who embodies the sort of management culture you're trying to stamp out? If you limit yourself to firing/prosecuting the specific managers that committed fraud/etc this time nothing will change because those guys only existed in the org and operated that way because of the broader management co…

"How do you eliminate fraud from a company without punishing managers who are innocent of any crime other than being a manager who embodies a management culture that promotes fraud?" Idk, doesn't sound like a problem to me.

My point is that this should be done, and trying to avoid those sweeping layoffs is misguided.

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#74

Post by amelius »

constantcrying wrote: post #49
iSnow wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have to get the leadership by the balls. The CEO isn't going to change a company's culture alone, but she has leverage and connections. If they know they face prison if the company plays foul in a major way, they will put pressure on their deputies to change culture. Also, fines that go up to say 10% of global revenue. That ensures that even activist shareholders take note and do not pressure the CEO to cut corne…

>If they know they face prison if the company plays foul in a major way, they will put pressure on their deputies to change culture. It is completely ridiculous to criminally prosecute leadership for crimes which happened without their knowing/consent/acknowledgment. It would be a perversion of justice to jail someone because many levels down someone else committed a crime. The best corporate culture does not prevent…

They should be liable by default. But of course people at a lower position can be liable for their own crimes. That is for a court to decide.

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#75

Post by constantcrying »

davedx wrote: post #59
constantcrying wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that finding the people responsible can be extremely hard, so you have to go against the corporation itself. Punishing a corporation is easy, but the government hates doing it for obvious reasons. It means ruining something which is useful to you and punishing tens of thousands of completely innocent people, with inevitable layoffs. What Boeing really needs is a complete change in management culture, a…

> The problem is that finding the people responsible can be extremely hard > What Boeing really needs is a complete change in management culture Who is ultimately responsible for management at a company though? The CEO and the other C-level people. This isn't really the daunting difficult problem you make it out to be: the buck stops at the C-suite. Who else could possibly be ultimately responsible??

You can not punish someone for a crime they didn't commit and had no knowledge of. That is ridiculous and a perversion of justice.

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#76

Post by ekianjo »

supernova87a wrote: post #25

Our governmental methods of punishment for corporations strike me as lacking. This seems similar to Wells Fargo, where ok, the company was fined, sued, made to pay restitution (somewhat) to victims. But underlying it all, the culture and incentives at the company that produced the situation didn't get fundamentally changed. Which often perpetuates across specific leaders, boards, and is a part of what a company is --…

jail time for CEO would be a start?

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#77

Post by constantcrying »

lordnacho wrote: post #64
archerx wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Make the CEO responsible, want those big rewards (high ceo pay) get ready to deal with big responsibility. I’m sure if CEOs were criminally liable things would change very quickly.

Yeah, this is key. I don't see why the system shouldn't be set up that way. Company does something criminal, now boss is considered a criminal.

That is a perversion of justice. You can not transfer criminal liability for money.

Your employees can be criminals regardless of culture. The precedent this would set is ridiculous.

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#78

Post by fuzzfactor »

puzzledobserver wrote: post #15

What does it mean for a corporation to plead guilty? Does it mean that there is evidence to establish a crime beyond reasonable doubt, but there is insufficient evidence to implicate any employees in particular?

>What does it mean for a corporation to plead guilty?

Same thing as for any other felon.

If they hadn't taken the plea, far worse things could have come to light that were even more egregious offenses.

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#79

Post by amelius »

constantcrying wrote: post #71
cycomanic wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well what are the ridiculously high salaries for if they don't even take responsibility. I mean parents are liable for their children, so why should a CEO not be made responsible for the culture of the corporation underneath them?

Because that would be a perversion of justice. You can not pay someone to take on criminal liability for crimes they didn't commit and could not have any knowledge of. Just imagine what precedent this would set if it was allowed. If courts would accept that criminal liability can be transferred in exchange of cash, how would the justice system look like? "Culture" is completely ephemeral and having a court of law det…

So you are saying that in a case like Boeing's the CEO was completely unaware of the shitshow at their company and couldn't have taken appropriate actions?

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#80

Post by onli »

constantcrying wrote: post #38
TulliusCicero wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could also just send a lot of people to jail. One of the problems here is that a lot of the time, the worst thing that happens to an individual from the company is just that they get fired. That's just not a very strong deterrent when the upside if you don't get caught is potentially huge raises/promotions/bonuses. Imagine if the worst thing that could happen to you when robbing banks if you get caught is just th…

Proving something like criminal negligence is extremely hard. The supply chain of software in aerospace is extremely long and finding out who exactly was acting negligent is near impossible.

> When people say I changed the culture of Boeing, that was the intent, so that it’s run like a business rather than a great engineering firm.

Yeah, hard to prove.

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