Why privacy is important, and having "nothing to hide" is irrelevant (2016) • Hacker News Board

Re: Why privacy is important, and having "nothing to hide" is irrelevant (2016)

#71

Post by advael » Sat, Jul 06, 2024, 8:01 PM UTC

slg wrote: post #62

w0m wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> spying is abstract to them. Not just spying, but for many/most - the harm is also. Most people struggle on the day-to-day; getting worked up that a random boogieman is compiling a profile on them to serve ads leads to a big pile of 'so?'. When Windows Recall was announced as an example; I started asking (non tech, mostly boomer) people their take on it. I almost universally got a 'neat!' response. The security impl…

Because who you are keeping something private from is often more important than what you are keeping private. For example, there are plenty of things I would be fine sharing with the anonymous internet that I wouldn't share with my coworkers. My coworkers knowing something embarrassing about me has obvious harm. There is no real harm in strangers knowing something embarrassing about me. And companies and governments…

The problem with making this case is that the threats are kind of stochastic. Usually what happens to an individual is that either a mistake occurs or some unpredictable factor changes to suddenly get them targeted. I had a relative who was blindsided by identity theft, fending off creditors for bills that were in her name because she was in some breach (I think maybe the sony one? Often not even easy to say how it happened). This is a consequence of erosion of privacy. American Muslims didn't have any more inkling that 9/11 would happen than anyone else, but suddenly received a ton of suspicion from both crazy wingnuts and actual government agencies despite often having "nothing to hide". Trans people who wanted to assimilate and blend in have by and large been blindsided by the massive increase in scrutiny they've gotten from random people and increasingly lawmakers in the last few years in much of the western world, because some machinations of internet culture made the right wing start thinking about them a lot all of a sudden in the last decade.

You can't really predict what factor is gonna get you targeted. You also can't predict the particular manner in which data that's being collected about you will be used to harm you. Sometimes it's about secrets you'd want to keep private, but often it's about correlations drawn that may even be wrong. Like if public sentiment or government scrutiny were to turn against tech in a huge way, maybe even just a post history on hackernews existing for you, regardless of what's in it, correlates you to some kind of cybercrime they're pursuing with a dragnet, and this gets your credit pinged when you try to buy a house, and someone freezes your bank account because something's going on here and we should just lock it down to be safe until we figure this out. Who knows? The erosion of privacy is a powderkeg that makes everyone more vulnerable to these sorts of things, but the effects aren't felt by everyone all at once, but chaotically based on circumstances beyond your control, sometimes even truly random ones. I can't predict the actual threat model that will become relevant to you because the attack surface is enormous already and the problem is about how it's ever-growing

It's hard to convince people that "you are more likely to be targeted and there is more that can be done if you are but it may never happen to you in particular and there's basically no way to know" is something they should care about. Intuitive risk assessment that our brains are good at can't fucking fathom the world we actually currently live in. Nonetheless, that is the form risk takes, and you should care about factors that expose you to it, even probabilistically

Re: Why privacy is important, and having "nothing to hide" is irrelevant (2016)

#72

Post by dylan604 » Sat, Jul 06, 2024, 8:02 PM UTC

advael wrote: post #11

I think most people who say "I have nothing to hide" are just mimicking a slogan they no doubt heard someone they respect or at least think talks well say Another common refrain, especially since Snowden, is just glib defeatism ("they already have all my info anyway") which is also a poor way to think about policy (and to make personal choices, but I won't argue those with most people) I really think the main reason…

>so it doesn't emotionally feel like a big deal to them

I wonder how people would feel if there was a single site that aggregated all of the data that has been harvested about them. Potentially showing where/how the data was collected and setting aside protecting that data from prying eyes would be problematic. In the world of today where evidence is just fake news, how [in]effective would something like this be in changing minds?

Re: Why privacy is important, and having "nothing to hide" is irrelevant (2016)

#73

Post by kstrauser » Sat, Jul 06, 2024, 8:05 PM UTC

Zelphyr wrote: post #3

When people say, “I have nothing to hide.” I remind them that they have a door on their bathroom and curtains over their windows for perfectly innocent yet no less valid reasons.

I take that a step further to highlight the point:

I don’t do anything illegal in my bathroom, but damned if I want a camera in there.

Re: Why privacy is important, and having "nothing to hide" is irrelevant (2016)

#74

Post by trod123 » Sat, Jul 06, 2024, 8:08 PM UTC

advael wrote: post #11

I think most people who say "I have nothing to hide" are just mimicking a slogan they no doubt heard someone they respect or at least think talks well say Another common refrain, especially since Snowden, is just glib defeatism ("they already have all my info anyway") which is also a poor way to think about policy (and to make personal choices, but I won't argue those with most people) I really think the main reason…

I disagree that people are complacent. What we are seeing today is the same thing East-germany saw under The Stasi.

The primary issue is that there is no means to correct the situation non-violently.

When you have people as a group lie for profit, and they corrupt your representatives and there is no one to hold them to account. They don't give you the choice, and you can't hold them accountable first because you find out about it later, but you still have no choice and you reach out to the people whose job it is to solely represent you in government and they do nothing, and the courts are inaccessible so you have no means.

At that point, despite declarations, there really isn't a rule of law then, it along with most of what people think of as their rights were taken by collusion gradually and quietly.

When that type of problem occurs, every citizen has a choice based upon the individual risk. Totalitarian governments kill people, or lock them up from kafka kangaroo courts (before they kill them) to give a semblance of legitimacy when that legitimacy has already passed. You show me the person, I'll show you the crime; is a famous saying.

When feedback systems fail, and can no longer respond, things will get worse until people will do something, and that will be destructive. The only choice they are given is when.

Totalitarian governments make no distinction between peaceful protests, they may not go after you initially, but collecting all the information upfront of everyone that does to black bag you later; or keep you under their thumb through enhanced coercion (given the systems) and harassment from every direction is not unheard of.

The moment you start surveilling peaceful protests is a known indicator that you are in fact in a totalitarian government.

Its not the people who are the problem. Its the fact that feedback mechanisms have been corrupted and are now broken.

Privacy is a necessary and requisite element for any insurgency in its beginnings, so by eliminating it no corrective action can take place and abuses will continually get worse.

You've had agency stripped from you without your consent and told all your life you live in a world that doesn't exist while misleading you at every step.

These situations historically always cascade, which is why we almost certainly will have a violent civil war in the near future. Its destructive, but that is the inevitable outcome when feedback systems are interfered with to the point where they can no longer function to keep people within reasonable bounds.

Re: Why privacy is important, and having "nothing to hide" is irrelevant (2016)

#75

Post by em-bee » Sat, Jul 06, 2024, 8:09 PM UTC

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #23

Secrets are real (and hard to keep), but privacy is just the politeness of your neighbours. We should never confuse the two - people seem to think that a right to privacy means a right to secrecy. It does not and never can. People have behaved badly enough with so called online anonymity. We will have our entire lives stripped bare and laid out on a digital plate - this will enable an incredible outpouring of new les…

it’s not the data that’s collected, it’s who uses it and how

any data that is being collected is at risk from being misused. only data that is not collected is safe. until we are able to fully protect data from misuse (which i believe is impossible), it is better to not collect data in the first place.

Re: Why privacy is important, and having "nothing to hide" is irrelevant (2016)

#76

Post by Habgdnv » Sat, Jul 06, 2024, 8:13 PM UTC

Imagine this scenario: When I was 18, I openly expressed my hatred for gay people and even reported someone to the police just because they were gay. Now, 60 years later, I’m 78. Society’s values have changed a lot, and those views are now illegal and widely condemned. If someone were to find an old paper where I wrote those hateful things, I could face legal trouble and social backlash for something I once openly believed.

The point I want to make is that even if you don't have something to hide today does not mean that you won't be convicted tomorrow.

Edit: Someone else gave an example with the abortions, and that they are now illegal in many places.

Re: Why privacy is important, and having "nothing to hide" is irrelevant (2016)

#77

Post by fragmede » Sat, Jul 06, 2024, 8:14 PM UTC

n1b wrote: post #36

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #23

Secrets are real (and hard to keep), but privacy is just the politeness of your neighbours. We should never confuse the two - people seem to think that a right to privacy means a right to secrecy. It does not and never can. People have behaved badly enough with so called online anonymity. We will have our entire lives stripped bare and laid out on a digital plate - this will enable an incredible outpouring of new les…

Individuals do have a right to privacy and, by extension, secrecy. You are not entitled to information others do not want you to have, no matter how well-intentioned or well-resourced you are. The only sort of society where your view should be acceptable is a society where every individual accepts their every thought and action is observed equally by all other complicit individuals.

It's pretty easy to find the sex offenders in my area through online registries. I can imagine that is information the sex offenders don't want me to have. Not sure what conspiracy this makes me complicit in though. Maybe you can enlighten me.

Re: Why privacy is important, and having "nothing to hide" is irrelevant (2016)

#78

Post by HeatrayEnjoyer » Sat, Jul 06, 2024, 8:16 PM UTC

dylan604 wrote: post #72

advael wrote: post #11

I think most people who say "I have nothing to hide" are just mimicking a slogan they no doubt heard someone they respect or at least think talks well say Another common refrain, especially since Snowden, is just glib defeatism ("they already have all my info anyway") which is also a poor way to think about policy (and to make personal choices, but I won't argue those with most people) I really think the main reason…

>so it doesn't emotionally feel like a big deal to them I wonder how people would feel if there was a single site that aggregated all of the data that has been harvested about them. Potentially showing where/how the data was collected and setting aside protecting that data from prying eyes would be problematic. In the world of today where evidence is just fake news, how [in]effective would something like this be in c…

Viewing the off-site data Facebook has collected was enlightening. There were events from when I paid for food and other goods at brick-and-mortar stores.

Re: Why privacy is important, and having "nothing to hide" is irrelevant (2016)

#79

Post by em-bee » Sat, Jul 06, 2024, 8:18 PM UTC

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #60

n1b wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Individuals do have a right to privacy and, by extension, secrecy. You are not entitled to information others do not want you to have, no matter how well-intentioned or well-resourced you are. The only sort of society where your view should be acceptable is a society where every individual accepts their every thought and action is observed equally by all other complicit individuals.

No. We build our societies to be as beneficial for us whilst accepting the compromises. Cars are waaaay better than horses. So now we have systems of licensing, proving you are capable of driving safely, ways to track your car ensure it is driven safely - perhaps originally if a police officer saw you and now every minute of the day we can see if you are speeding or potentially dangerous We did all this over time, bu…

so we collect the data that is needed to track cars. but that doesn't mean we should just allow the collection of all data. the collection of data must server a purpose where the needs of the society outweigh the needs of the individual. this must be proven on a case by case basis.

so for example it is not necessary to track the route you take with your car, or who is inside, in order to find out if you are speeding. speed can be measured anonymously, and only when you break the speed limit, the camera saves the recording, scans the license place and identifies the owner/driver of the car. there is no need to collect any data on cars that are not speeding.

Re: Why privacy is important, and having "nothing to hide" is irrelevant (2016)

#80

Post by advael » Sat, Jul 06, 2024, 8:22 PM UTC

trod123 wrote: post #74

advael wrote: post #11

I think most people who say "I have nothing to hide" are just mimicking a slogan they no doubt heard someone they respect or at least think talks well say Another common refrain, especially since Snowden, is just glib defeatism ("they already have all my info anyway") which is also a poor way to think about policy (and to make personal choices, but I won't argue those with most people) I really think the main reason…

I disagree that people are complacent. What we are seeing today is the same thing East-germany saw under The Stasi. The primary issue is that there is no means to correct the situation non-violently. When you have people as a group lie for profit, and they corrupt your representatives and there is no one to hold them to account. They don't give you the choice, and you can't hold them accountable first because you fin…

There's a lot to fear from revolutionary uprising, and I think people are very risk-averse, so this becomes a coordination problem even when there's perhaps widespread discontent

I agree with your conclusion that most rich countries are totalitarian in character, and it feels so fundamentally absurd that a lot of how we got here was merely developing the capability and not doing enough to prevent it

However, I don't think any kind of uprising is actually inevitable. One of the most powerful uses of these panopticons is the pre-emption and disruption of coordinated resistance efforts. Is an effective uprising even feasible if not supported by some faction of the extant powerbrokers? Hard to say to be honest. A lot of these capabilities are unprecedented, if not in nature then certainly in responsiveness and scope