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What makes e natural? (2004)

komal.hu

71–80 of 95 posts

Re: What makes e natural? (2004)

#71
post #25

Things like Relationship to pi; Euler's formula: ix e = cos x + isin x derivative is itself: d x x -- e = e dx

Sorry, you cannot use "imaginary" numbers to define something as "natural"!

Transcendental numbers like e are a lot more "unnatural" than imaginary numbers.

Re: What makes e natural? (2004)

#72

This is a frustrating article because it never explains why e is the natural logarithm base. To me, the easiest way to understand it is via continuous compound interest: * If you invest $1 at 100% interest for 1 year, you get $2 at the end * Compounded 2 times in a year, you get 100/2 = 50% interest every 1/2 year, which amounts to $2.25 * Compounded 4 times in a year, you get 100/4 = 25% interest every 1/4 year, whi…

Another useful explainer -- obligatory 3b1b: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2MIpDrF7Es

Re: What makes e natural? (2004)

#73
post #6

e is natural because it's the smallest positive root of the equation e^(i pi) + 1 = 0 .

Not really. Your equation has no unknowns, but if you consider the "e" in your equation as the unknown, and solve it (here I use "a" instead as the unknown, and use "e" in its usual meaning):

We want a^(i pi) + 1 = 0. Now,

a^(i pi) = e^(ln(a) i pi) = e^(i ln(a) pi) = cos( ln(a) pi) + i sin( ln(a) pi),

so we want cos( ln(a) pi) = -1, sin( ln(a) pi) = 0,

so ln(a) = 1, 3, 5, so a = e, e^3, e^5, ...

Thus indeed e^(i pi) + 1 = 0.

But also ln(a) = -1, -3, -5 work, so for example for

a = 1/e = 0.3678794412... > 0, we have

a^(i pi) + 1 = 0;

and of course for a = e^-99 = 1.0112214926104485... × 10^-43 etc.

Re: What makes e natural? (2004)

#74
post #49
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nonsense, this equation doesn't even make any sense without a well defined notion of the exponential function, and then a well defined extension of said function into the complex numbers. You will already have e by the time you reach this equation because defining what exp(z) even means requires you already know the properties of e^x over the reals you wish to preserve. And Euler's formula comes from finding such a f…

> And Euler's formula comes from finding such a function and then defining it to be exp(z). That's certainly one way, but you can also define exp via its power series (which is easily proven to be convergent everywhere). Then, all the properties of exp, as well as Euler's formula, are actual theorems, not just definitions.

It doesn’t matter which definition you pick. I e.g. had it defined axiomatically when I studied, i.e. we were given a list of properties which identify exp unambiguously and then we were given a proof of its existence. The fact that those properties were part of the definition doesn’t take away from their profoundness. The function could still just not exist. Same thing with defining by formulas. The map is not the territory.

Re: What makes e natural? (2004)

#75

e is the unique real number satisfying 1 + x 1 - x (1 + x/n)^n Letting n go to infinity gives e^x = \sum_{n=0}^infy x^n/n! using Newton's binomial formula.

> e is the unique real number satisfying 1 + x I think if you replace e by 2e, this still holds. Therefore your definition of e is not unique.

1 + (-0.1) = 0.9

(2e)^(-0.1) = 0.844243...

The former is not <= the latter.

Re: What makes e natural? (2004)

#76
post #32
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That may be how it was arrived at historically, but it is not the best way to explain it. e arises when you ask the question: is there a function that is its own derivative? And it turns out the answer is yes. It is this infinite series: 1 + x + x^2/2 + x^3/6 + ... x^n/n! ... which you can easily verify is its own derivative simply by differentiating it term-by-term. When you evaluate this function at x=1, the result…

Note that C + Cx + ... would have also worked. So why the 1? Just simplicity?

Yes. Multiplying any function by a constant changes its derivative by the same constant, so for any function f, if df = f then d(Cf) = Cf. So yes, you can multiply by C without losing the interesting properties of the derivative (whatever those might be), but you can do that to any function, and so the fact that you can do it to this function is true but not particularly interesting.

Re: What makes e natural? (2004)

#78
post #62
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That may be how it was arrived at historically, but it is not the best way to explain it. e arises when you ask the question: is there a function that is its own derivative? And it turns out the answer is yes. It is this infinite series: 1 + x + x^2/2 + x^3/6 + ... x^n/n! ... which you can easily verify is its own derivative simply by differentiating it term-by-term. When you evaluate this function at x=1, the result…

Have you happened to have read Visual Complex Analysis ? If not I think you might like it. And a tangent from your username: I quite like how complex numbers and functions like CIS made it into Common Lisp.

Nope. Thanks for the pointer. And thanks for pointing out CIS. I've been coding in CL since before it was standardized and I had never run across that before. But yes, one of the things I love about CL is that I can do (expt (sqrt -1) (sqrt -1)) and get the right answer.

Re: What makes e natural? (2004)

#79
post #29
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That may be how it was arrived at historically, but it is not the best way to explain it. e arises when you ask the question: is there a function that is its own derivative? And it turns out the answer is yes. It is this infinite series: 1 + x + x^2/2 + x^3/6 + ... x^n/n! ... which you can easily verify is its own derivative simply by differentiating it term-by-term. When you evaluate this function at x=1, the result…

For me these concept seem intuitively linked, simply because derivation measures the rate of change, and that compounding definition aims to find the compounding function with constant growth. The factorial definition only seems to make for an easier proof of the derivation of e^x.

That's kind of the point. The only background knowledge you need to understand my definition is how to differentiate a polynomial. Anyone capable of understanding what it even means to find a function that is its own derivative is almost certainly going to know that.

Re: What makes e natural? (2004)

#80
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That may be how it was arrived at historically, but it is not the best way to explain it. e arises when you ask the question: is there a function that is its own derivative? And it turns out the answer is yes. It is this infinite series: 1 + x + x^2/2 + x^3/6 + ... x^n/n! ... which you can easily verify is its own derivative simply by differentiating it term-by-term. When you evaluate this function at x=1, the result…

The exponential function arises from multiple sources: - the solution of the ode you just stated. - compound interest. - The defining property of exponential functions is f(x+y)=f(x)f(y) with some normalization. - Moving on the unit circle is given by an exponential function because rotation is a group, i.e. a^(i(x+y)). Now choose the basis a such that you move with unit speed. - ... The nice thing is that all of the…

> The "has nothing to do with exponentiating e" I would strongly disagree with.

That was a bad way of phrasing it. I should have said something more along the lines of "... has nothing to do with multiplying e by itself iπ times. Multiplying something by itself n times is actually a special case of the more general concept of finding a function that is its own derivative."

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