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Fern Hollow Bridge should have been closed years before it collapsed

practical.engineering

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Re: Fern Hollow Bridge should have been closed years before it collapsed

#71
post #19
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yet Italy spent years trying to put Adrian Newey in jail for building an f1 car involved in a fatal crash.

Not a well-connected Italian, obviously.

> Not a well-connected Italian, obviously.

Obviously, since he isn't an Italian at all :-/

Re: Fern Hollow Bridge should have been closed years before it collapsed

#72
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t know how things work in other countries, but in the US new construction is almost always funded with a big chunk of federal dollars (deficit spending), but maintenance has to be done out of your own state or local budget. The incentives are all fucked up.

Same in other countries for many things. It's relatively easier to spend big on white elephants but almost impossible to get basic day-to-day operation money. Case in point right now at the France-Italy border : they're building the longest rail tunnel in the world under the Alps for tens of billions. There is a tunnel already (Frejus tunnel), which is used at 25% of its capacity, but public money is raining on this…

that's because the frejus route is unsuitable for high speed rail.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turin%E2%80%93Lyon_high-speed_...

Additional traffic limitations stem from the impact of excessive train transit on the population living near the line. Some 60,000 people live within 250 m (820 ft) of the historical line, and would object to the noise from late-night transits. In 2007 the conventional line was used for only one-third of this calculated total capacity. This low use level was in part because restrictions such as an unusually low maximum allowable train height and the very steep gradients (26–30‰) and sharp curves in its high valley sections discourage its use.

A 2018 analysis, by contrast, found the existing line close to saturation, largely because safety regulations now prohibit passenger and freight trains from crossing in a single-tube tunnel. This very significantly reduces the maximum allowed capacity of the 13.7 km long Fréjus tunnel, which trains of one type must now fully cross before any train of the other type can be allowed in the other direction. The historical line's path through the deep Maurienne valley is also exposed to rockfalls, and a major landslide in August 2023 forced its closure for most likely over one year.

Re: Fern Hollow Bridge should have been closed years before it collapsed

#73
post #70
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet we have money to spare for foreign aid, NGOs, spendthrift in military buying, etc. We should cover all our internal needs before we show our largesse elsewhere.

Most “foreign” aid, especially military aid, is is spent within the “donor” country. Japan is the most extreme in this regard, followed by the USA. And, like maintenance: foreign aid can avoid local problems, e.g. stabilizing countries in central America can reduce the incentive for people to flee to the US (which for most people is a distant plan C over staying where they are or moving a short distance away).

Its grift. Why does the US have to spend money on military aid to first world countries, even if a very sizable chunk is spent on American weaponry?

That money could be spent on maintenance rather than fattening our MIC.

NGOs are similar. In theory they sound good, the leaders can pull sizable salaries, eclipsing any congresspersons earnings and they are incentivized to keep the bad thing happening—if they solved the problem their reason to be would cease.

Re: Fern Hollow Bridge should have been closed years before it collapsed

#74
post #12

If you knew all this, would you have avoided driving over the bridge? Would you have wanted the local government to close it indefinitely awaiting repairs? Let's say it would collapse with 100% certainty randomly in the next three years, and you're in the danger area for 2 minutes, with a 20% chance of fatality (in fact, nobody died). That's still around a one in 4 million chance any given trip kills you, about the s…

Something I think you're missing here is that when the bridge collapses, cars can no longer drive across it until a new bridge is built, so the inconvenience is almost certainly much worse than if they'd just closed it for maintenance for a bit in the first place.

Re: Fern Hollow Bridge should have been closed years before it collapsed

#75
post #60
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The average American driver includes drunk and tired drivers who play on their phone while speeding. The numbers for sober people driving reasonably e.g. on their commute are probably better.

Those drive on the same road, right next to you.

That doesn’t make my statement wrong.

Re: Fern Hollow Bridge should have been closed years before it collapsed

#76
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If you don't want to pay taxes then who's gonna pay for the roads?" Apparently, nobody pays for it either way. It's astounding to me how little tax money goes into paying for infrastructure. In 2023 the US federal government spent $44.8 billion on infrastructure and transferred $81.5 billion to the states. That's $126.3 billion out of a $6.1 trillion budget. ('Only' $4.4 trillion in revenue though.) That's 2% of the…

In theory, shouldn't it be this way? Having localities pay from local tax money seems like it would focus money on expenditures that the people that use them and pay for them will approve of with their own skin in the game. There are some interstate highways that serve multiple localities, but these should be the minority, right?

Only if the city has the right to bar travelers from passing through.

Re: Fern Hollow Bridge should have been closed years before it collapsed

#77
post #73
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most “foreign” aid, especially military aid, is is spent within the “donor” country. Japan is the most extreme in this regard, followed by the USA. And, like maintenance: foreign aid can avoid local problems, e.g. stabilizing countries in central America can reduce the incentive for people to flee to the US (which for most people is a distant plan C over staying where they are or moving a short distance away).

Its grift. Why does the US have to spend money on military aid to first world countries, even if a very sizable chunk is spent on American weaponry? That money could be spent on maintenance rather than fattening our MIC. NGOs are similar. In theory they sound good, the leaders can pull sizable salaries, eclipsing any congresspersons earnings and they are incentivized to keep the bad thing happening—if they solved the…

To understand why the US government spends so much on rich countries, you can’t just think in economic terms, since that’s not what why the US government is doing it.

The reason is geopolitical. It is seen as necessary to give money to allies to prop up their military so the US hegemony can be maintained. Adversaries (China, Russia, Iran) need to be made afraid not only of US might, but also of Allies’ might. So the US doesn’t wait around for those countries to spend on their military on their own, or god forbid to realign their alliances based on their spending. Checks it is.

Re: Fern Hollow Bridge should have been closed years before it collapsed

#78

For context, there were 42,391 structurally deficient bridges in 2023.[0] 16 of the worst are in LA county and several see 300k trips daily, including one carrying the 405.[1] 0. PDF https://artbabridgereport.org/reports/2023-ARTBA-Bridge-Repo... 1. https://artbabridgereport.org/state/ranking/top-bridges EDIT: States with the least % of SD bridges: AZ, NV, TX, DE, and UT. WV and IA have the most at almost 20% SD brid…

It should be mentioned that structurally deficient does not mean unsafe.

Re: Fern Hollow Bridge should have been closed years before it collapsed

#79

For context, there were 42,391 structurally deficient bridges in 2023.[0] 16 of the worst are in LA county and several see 300k trips daily, including one carrying the 405.[1] 0. PDF https://artbabridgereport.org/reports/2023-ARTBA-Bridge-Repo... 1. https://artbabridgereport.org/state/ranking/top-bridges EDIT: States with the least % of SD bridges: AZ, NV, TX, DE, and UT. WV and IA have the most at almost 20% SD brid…

Thank you for this. This is neat data.

I'm not sure about anyone else, but I'm pretty sure our bridges should be something considered important enough to keep maintained. :(

> 36 percent of all U.S. bridges (over 222,000 spans) require major repair work or replacement. Placed end‐to‐end, these structures span over 6,100 miles – and would take over 110 hours to cross at an average speed of 55‐miles‐per‐hour.

That's a lot of bridge.

Re: Fern Hollow Bridge should have been closed years before it collapsed

#80

For context, there were 42,391 structurally deficient bridges in 2023.[0] 16 of the worst are in LA county and several see 300k trips daily, including one carrying the 405.[1] 0. PDF https://artbabridgereport.org/reports/2023-ARTBA-Bridge-Repo... 1. https://artbabridgereport.org/state/ranking/top-bridges EDIT: States with the least % of SD bridges: AZ, NV, TX, DE, and UT. WV and IA have the most at almost 20% SD brid…

Those states also have some of the fewest bridges, with the exception of Texas, which has the most of all states, and double the second place state (Ohio). That said, Ohio is 41 times smaller…

So many ways to dice this information and I don’t even live in the US.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/190386/number-of-road-br...

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