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Electricity prices in France turn negative as renewable energy floods the grid

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Re: Electricity prices in France turn negative as renewable energy floods the grid

#71

What I never understood was how France gets 70-75% of their electricity from Nuclear, yet their energy prices aren't "too cheap to meter", and while cheaper than their neighbors, don't really raise any eyebrows. Wouldn't this be a major example of why Nuclear is NOT the future?

France is its own unique thing because of how the government paid for so many things out of pocket they ended up losing money selling at wholesale rates. Safe Nuclear ended up being a lot more expensive than earlier predictions.

It’s not some design issue that you can fix with small modular reactors or whatever. Every time anything significant goes wrong people kept adding systems to prevent it happening again. Sometimes that’s something physical like a wall or redundant system, and other times it’s longer procedures and more paperwork. This has been great for avoiding another SL-1, 3 mile island etc, but mitigating every possible risks isn’t cheap. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SL-1

For example there was once an expensive issue where foreign material fell into the spent fuel pool where fixing it significantly extended an outage at a single reactor so now everyone working on anything at any reactor takes significant steps to mitigate that risk. Great things working as intended except now something that might have cost 100k now costs significantly more because of that mitigation effort.

Extend that to any significant issue across hundreds of reactors and 50+ years and suddenly triple checking to avoid every fuck up means doing anything is really expensive. Worse very little of it is wasted effort, there’s just far more ways to fuck up in practice than in theory.

PS: I do believe it’s possible to have safe and cheap nuclear power, it’s just going to look very different than what we’re doing today.

Re: Electricity prices in France turn negative as renewable energy floods the grid

#72

What I never understood was how France gets 70-75% of their electricity from Nuclear, yet their energy prices aren't "too cheap to meter", and while cheaper than their neighbors, don't really raise any eyebrows. Wouldn't this be a major example of why Nuclear is NOT the future?

> Wouldn't this be a major example of why Nuclear is NOT the future? Not at all. Nobody has really put forth "too cheap to meter" as a rationale for nuclear for 50 years or more. The issue is that nuclear is currently the only reliable base load generation technology that doesn't produce carbon (except perhaps hydro for reasonable definitions of "reliable"). The other top technologies either produce carbon (natural g…

Isn't it a bit whishful thinking to think that storage will come down in price and nuclear won't?

Beyond that, leaving out storage costs, what are the technologies that can cover the world's storage? And in what quantities?

Because if I think of lithium, wouldn't it be an environmental disaster to extract and recycle all the materials involved?

In general, I don't understand why basically nuclear is to be replaced.

Re: Electricity prices in France turn negative as renewable energy floods the grid

#73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Wouldn't this be a major example of why Nuclear is NOT the future? Not at all. Nobody has really put forth "too cheap to meter" as a rationale for nuclear for 50 years or more. The issue is that nuclear is currently the only reliable base load generation technology that doesn't produce carbon (except perhaps hydro for reasonable definitions of "reliable"). The other top technologies either produce carbon (natural g…

Why isn’t wind and solar politically dicey? Nuclear is only politically dicey due to ignorance. I’d rather one nuclear plant than having the landscape covered with huge windmills — windmills made out of materials that aren’t recyclable. Solar is even worse. Nuclear doesn’t affect wildlife like wind and solar.

Spending $20B for $1B worth of generating capacity is and always should be politically dicey.

Re: Electricity prices in France turn negative as renewable energy floods the grid

#74

What I never understood was how France gets 70-75% of their electricity from Nuclear, yet their energy prices aren't "too cheap to meter", and while cheaper than their neighbors, don't really raise any eyebrows. Wouldn't this be a major example of why Nuclear is NOT the future?

Operating costs for a coal-fired power plant, a nuclear reactor power plant, and a solar-battery power plant (requirement: steady power output 24-7) are all pretty comparable these days. Upfront constuction costs on nuclear are higher than others, so nuclear comes out near the top of the cost envelope. A lot also depends on variable costs of uranium ore and the fuel rod production process.

While a 1 GW coal plant might burn as much as 4 million tons of coal a year, a comparable nuclear power plant only consumes some 30 tons of fuels rods per year - but depending on ore quality and U-235 enrichment level, that might translate to 300,000 tons of uranium ore that needs to be mined and converted into fuel rods through an expensive multi-step process. Coal is much dirtier in terms of average daily emissions (though there's always the catastrophic failure risk with nuclear).

Solar / wind / storage operating costs are limited to maintenance and battery replacement, which can still be considerable.

Re: Electricity prices in France turn negative as renewable energy floods the grid

#75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Negative prices make storage very practical

And de-incentivizes supply. A real solution need to be available to balance the supply and demand of power such that the rates on both ends are predictable. A market where a good fluctuates between profitable and not is not one very attractive to investment. Playing the video game Victoria 3 has taught me a lot about healthy markets. You have to play both sides of supply and demand to get to the prices you need

> A market where a good fluctuates between profitable and not is not one very attractive to investment.

This is the most wild thing I've ever read on this website. Pick just about any security and you'll see that buying and selling it over time fluctuates between profitable and not profitable. If something was always profitable everyone would do it and get infinitely rich. Arbitrage wouldn't exist. Economies would shut down.

Re: Electricity prices in France turn negative as renewable energy floods the grid

#76

What I never understood was how France gets 70-75% of their electricity from Nuclear, yet their energy prices aren't "too cheap to meter", and while cheaper than their neighbors, don't really raise any eyebrows. Wouldn't this be a major example of why Nuclear is NOT the future?

> Wouldn't this be a major example of why Nuclear is NOT the future? Not at all. Nobody has really put forth "too cheap to meter" as a rationale for nuclear for 50 years or more. The issue is that nuclear is currently the only reliable base load generation technology that doesn't produce carbon (except perhaps hydro for reasonable definitions of "reliable"). The other top technologies either produce carbon (natural g…

Note: nuclear near rivers is prone to the same "reliability" issues as hydro.

Re: Electricity prices in France turn negative as renewable energy floods the grid

#77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm confused. The way you've phrased this certainly doesn't sound like it couldn't be the future.

I've heard for years that if we just had "tons" of Nuclear plants, our energy costs would essentially be too cheap to meter. Yet France is not experiencing this even at 75% Nuclear.

As far as I know and even learned as a (since failed) physicist, a country needs a good mixture of energy sources. Mind you I went to a university that's nuclear energy focused and even they didn't advocate for full on only nuclear.

In my opinion, if someone says we should just have all nuclear, it means they are dealing in absolutes, maybe God in politics and debate, but they ignore that reality is much more complicated, as technology meets economics and politics (and much more).

(Again, AFAIK) nuclear energy is great when it comes to meeting the "baseline" requirements, roughly the level below which energy consumption of a region never drops. It is because nuclear energy cannot be scaled up and down quickly, so it's not adequate for peaks.

To balance the peaks and keep the network stable, you need energy sources that can increase their output in seconds (or less?).

That's also one of the issues with wind and solar, you can't choose when it is available and when it isn't, so coal etc is still needed to make sure that energy production and consumption is practically equal at all times.

Re: Electricity prices in France turn negative as renewable energy floods the grid

#78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Wouldn't this be a major example of why Nuclear is NOT the future? Not at all. Nobody has really put forth "too cheap to meter" as a rationale for nuclear for 50 years or more. The issue is that nuclear is currently the only reliable base load generation technology that doesn't produce carbon (except perhaps hydro for reasonable definitions of "reliable"). The other top technologies either produce carbon (natural g…

Why isn’t wind and solar politically dicey? Nuclear is only politically dicey due to ignorance. I’d rather one nuclear plant than having the landscape covered with huge windmills — windmills made out of materials that aren’t recyclable. Solar is even worse. Nuclear doesn’t affect wildlife like wind and solar.

Until it does…

Re: Electricity prices in France turn negative as renewable energy floods the grid

#79
post #58
post #28

Potentially ignorant question. How does this impact the consumer? Do they actually get paid/credited for electricity used?

Consumers don't pay the market rate, because that'd expose them to price shocks (see: the griddy fiasco in texas a few years ago). They get a fixed rate from their utility.

In France consumers with below 36kVA grid connection can choose to pay state fixed prices, or they can choose various market offers, here is the official list of electricity providers:

https://www.enedis.fr/liste-des-fournisseurs-delectricite

Re: Electricity prices in France turn negative as renewable energy floods the grid

#80
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Wouldn't this be a major example of why Nuclear is NOT the future? Not at all. Nobody has really put forth "too cheap to meter" as a rationale for nuclear for 50 years or more. The issue is that nuclear is currently the only reliable base load generation technology that doesn't produce carbon (except perhaps hydro for reasonable definitions of "reliable"). The other top technologies either produce carbon (natural g…

Isn't it a bit whishful thinking to think that storage will come down in price and nuclear won't? Beyond that, leaving out storage costs, what are the technologies that can cover the world's storage? And in what quantities? Because if I think of lithium, wouldn't it be an environmental disaster to extract and recycle all the materials involved? In general, I don't understand why basically nuclear is to be replaced.

> Isn't it a bit wishful thinking to think that storage will come down in price and nuclear won't?

It's been true for 50 years, assuming it will be true for another decade or two is not wishful thinking.

> Beyond that, leaving out storage costs, what are the technologies that can cover the world's storage? And in what quantities?

Batteries for short term storage and pumped hydro for long term storage.

> Because if I think of lithium, wouldn't it be an environmental disaster to extract and recycle all the materials involved?

No.

> In general, I don't understand why basically nuclear is to be replaced.

It's inevitable that the cheapest solution will win. Not the best, but the cheapest.

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