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FAA investigating how counterfeit titanium got into Boeing and Airbus jets

nytimes.com

71–80 of 267 posts

Re: FAA investigating how counterfeit titanium got into Boeing and Airbus jets

#71
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oddly enough, this one seems to pass at least some testing even despite the phony documentation. This seems to be about this titan: «Boeing and Airbus both said their tests of affected materials so far had shown no signs of problems.» I read this as implying that Airbus has been buying other things from the same source and done its own tests on samples: «“Numerous tests have been performed on parts coming from the sa…

You can't really test. The tests you can do don't actually tell you what you really need to know. You can't prove the material is good, you can only trust that the material is good, and 50 years later observe how it held up. You can't find out the distribution of the alloy ingredients, or detect voids, or crystal structures, or traces of other elements, except by sawing the part in half and looking at the cut surface…

I'm curious:

I assume that the documentation asserts something acceptable about the manufacturer testing (accelerated, destructive, what have you). In theory it could assert that the production process was such and such without any information about resulting quality assurance, but that seems improbable.

Why can't those tests be repeated (on samples, obviously)?

Re: FAA investigating how counterfeit titanium got into Boeing and Airbus jets

#72
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What was the problematic outsourcing decision here? Buying your titanium from a titanium supplier? Is Spirit supposed to be refine and foundry all their own metal alloys? I agree that it's a little bonkers that Boeing spun off it's own aerostructures, but since it seems like Boeing has it's own problems with internal fraudulent inspection reports, this sure doesn't seem like an out sourcing problem per-se.

> What was the problematic outsourcing decision here? Buying from an untrusted source without any verification of your own in place. > Buying your titanium from a titanium supplier? For all we know they bought it on wish.com. > Is Spirit supposed to be refine and foundry all their own metal alloys? Random sampling of materials to determine if the delivery is fit for purpose should be the absolute minimum.

"For all we know they bought it on wish.com."

Source?

Re: FAA investigating how counterfeit titanium got into Boeing and Airbus jets

#73
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What was the problematic outsourcing decision here? Buying from an untrusted source without any verification of your own in place. > Buying your titanium from a titanium supplier? For all we know they bought it on wish.com. > Is Spirit supposed to be refine and foundry all their own metal alloys? Random sampling of materials to determine if the delivery is fit for purpose should be the absolute minimum.

"For all we know they bought it on wish.com." Source?

For your future reference, the colloquial English expression "For all we know" implies that a humorous exaggeration follows.

Re: FAA investigating how counterfeit titanium got into Boeing and Airbus jets

#74
post #2

However much you can "save" by outsourcing...in a sufficiently fraud-plagued business environment, it's seldom worth it longer-term. Conveniently, modern businesses and their leaders are judged and rewarded purely on short-term metrics.

For the company as a whole, no, it's not worth it long term.

For the division chief who smashed their targets, got a big bonus and a promotion, and used it to jump to a higher-paying role at another company? You better believe it was worth it!

Re: FAA investigating how counterfeit titanium got into Boeing and Airbus jets

#75
A few decades ago:

I talked with a business man who said that the Chinese would absolutely perform to contract but no more. Early samples would be excellent, full production would be exactly and only what you asked for. Almost malicious compliance.

I talked with a Chinese salesperson who said they always signed contracts with foreigners using their English name. Such contracts are unenforceable. Almost malicious compliance.

It's hard for me to have sympathy for complaining about people doing the least they can when you're trying to pay the least you can.

Re: FAA investigating how counterfeit titanium got into Boeing and Airbus jets

#76
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If sufficiently intense oversight is needed at the boundary then outsourcing becomes uneconomical. This is something SpaceX found (and also because external sources were often slow and expensive.)

Are you sure that applies to commodities with extremely high capital costs like mining and refining ore? It sort of makes sense to me with SpaceX. They’re presumably buying fairly boutique parts that likely already require custom manufacturing, so someone is spending capital either way. I can see how it might make sense for them to build a custom manufacturing line instead of paying someone else. That seems odd for c…

The weasel word "sufficiently" was doing the heavy lifting.

Re: FAA investigating how counterfeit titanium got into Boeing and Airbus jets

#77
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't really test. The tests you can do don't actually tell you what you really need to know. You can't prove the material is good, you can only trust that the material is good, and 50 years later observe how it held up. You can't find out the distribution of the alloy ingredients, or detect voids, or crystal structures, or traces of other elements, except by sawing the part in half and looking at the cut surface…

I'm curious: I assume that the documentation asserts something acceptable about the manufacturer testing (accelerated, destructive, what have you). In theory it could assert that the production process was such and such without any information about resulting quality assurance, but that seems improbable. Why can't those tests be repeated (on samples, obviously)?

Because it's not just about testing. Like in high-quality software, testing is only the final step. The primary determinant of quality is the source material and how it's processed, and testing can't completely prove whether or not it was processed correctly.

Re: FAA investigating how counterfeit titanium got into Boeing and Airbus jets

#78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Do aviation parts have traceability? Like a serial number or qr code that can be used to identify suspect components? Are you kidding? I doubt there is a single industry which empathizes traceability more than aerospace.

Maybe biomedical devices or pharmaceuticals. I'm not sure but they're at least competitive in that ranking.

Nope. I work in medical devices and aviation has higher levels of traceability, at least in software anyway.

Re: FAA investigating how counterfeit titanium got into Boeing and Airbus jets

#79

A few decades ago: I talked with a business man who said that the Chinese would absolutely perform to contract but no more. Early samples would be excellent, full production would be exactly and only what you asked for. Almost malicious compliance. I talked with a Chinese salesperson who said they always signed contracts with foreigners using their English name. Such contracts are unenforceable. Almost malicious comp…

Required reading: "Poorly made in china" by Paul Midler. Truly a great look at exactly how this happens.

Re: FAA investigating how counterfeit titanium got into Boeing and Airbus jets

#80
post #79

A few decades ago: I talked with a business man who said that the Chinese would absolutely perform to contract but no more. Early samples would be excellent, full production would be exactly and only what you asked for. Almost malicious compliance. I talked with a Chinese salesperson who said they always signed contracts with foreigners using their English name. Such contracts are unenforceable. Almost malicious comp…

Required reading: "Poorly made in china" by Paul Midler. Truly a great look at exactly how this happens.

I heartily second this recommendation.
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