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I couldn't escape poison oak, so I started eating it

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Re: I couldn't escape poison oak, so I started eating it

#71

Post by Zenzero »

burnte wrote: post #52
AlbertCory wrote: post #40

Doctors are pretty much required to follow Establishment medicine. They're not going to tell you about folk remedies, because it could be malpractice for them. By way of contrast, I've told my doctor about sinus rinsing, and she was not disapproving. But she said, "a lot of my patients do this and they seem to like it." I think this is a better response than blanket disapproval. The corresponding response to urushiol…

> Doctors are pretty much required to follow Establishment medicine. They're not going to tell you about folk remedies, because it could be malpractice for them. Not in the USA. In the USA doctors can absolutely recommend non-medical treatments like supplements and homeopathy and other crap. Each doctor has their own threshold of comfort in what they will and won't recommend. But as you yourself then followed up, you…

> But it's a lot less black and white than you seem to feel.

That's the problem. The concept of what is reasonable is too nebulous to rely on.

Also people are quite simply really dumb. You can make some innocuous statement like "others have found nasal rinses to be beneficial", and some idiot will get themselves hospitalized with a draining abscess in their face. It turns out that person decided their nasal rinse was going to be alternating eucalyptus oil and bone broth because someone on Facebook said that was the most healing, and they claim that you as their doctor said it was OK. The case gets escalated to you having to explain to the board that you didn't make any such claim, but because there is a record of you saying that nasal rinses can be beneficial, it can be at the discretion of a "reasonable person" if that skirted too close to their line of culpability for the injury that the person sustained.

The solution is to stick close to what is accepted medicine, and if people want to complain about establishment medicine, then let them. Doctors understand there is safety in the herd.

Re: I couldn't escape poison oak, so I started eating it

#72

Post by borski »

wakawaka28 wrote: post #60
ImPostingOnHN wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Simply depriving these people of airtime does NOT quash their views and make them go away. > We should know by now that censoring information these days does not work This argument (repeated) is a bit of a red herring. I haven't seen anyone saying we can make pseudoscience go away forever. We're just questioning the wisdom of embracing and amplifying it to reach people it wouldn't have before. > It fuels conspiracy…

>I haven't seen anyone saying we can make pseudoscience go away forever. You must not have been looking. There are government and media officials coming out against "mis-, dis-, and mal-information" on a constant basis. These same people are the biggest liars around. >We're just questioning the wisdom of embracing and amplifying it to reach people it wouldn't have before. "You can have free speech as long as you only…

> "You can have free speech as long as you only speak quietly in your own closet." The power to curate information or "amplify" it as you say is practically very hard to distinguish from censorship when you choose to show only things you agree with, or show only the worst straw men for the other side.

No platform owes you the right to amplify nonsense. The government can’t make you stop, but individual platforms or individuals themselves? They’re free to do whatever, just like you. Don’t like it? Start a Truth Social and go yell at your adoring fans all you want.

> Conspiring to suppress conspiracy theories sure won't make them stop. Being right and showing positive results to the contrary is what wins the day.

While that’s a cute thought, conspiracy theorists are exceptionally good at one thing: theorizing conspiracies. “Being right” doesn’t happen, ever, because any positive results can simply be walked back as “part of another conspiracy.”

The way you kill conspiracy theories is not amplifying them as truth. That’s it.

Re: I couldn't escape poison oak, so I started eating it

#73

Post by borski »

wakawaka28 wrote: post #46
alexose wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Science is not conducted through public debate. Full stop. There's a reason why it's peer review, and not talk show host review. During COVID, most everybody was operating from an incomplete data set. Public officials were wrong about some things. You can choose to see this as a conspiracy set up by big pharma, or you can see it as imperfect people doing what they could to mitigate a public health crisis. And yes, cr…

>Science is not conducted through public debate. Full stop. There's a reason why it's peer review, and not talk show host review. You're only saying that because you happen to disagree with what is being said. Full stop.

Er, no… that’s literally just the truth. Science is not done as a public debate. That’s politics.

Science doesn’t “vote.”

Re: I couldn't escape poison oak, so I started eating it

#74

Post by simple10 »

taurusnoises wrote: post #57
jandrewrogers wrote: post #44

You don't need to eat it. A well-known phenomenon in the US military is that some of the sites for Basic Training of new recruits have prodigious quantities of poison oak/ivy/sumac as the local flora. As consequence of the military training, you are rolling around in those plants daily. Initially, a large percentage of people have the usual reaction but it quickly disappears after a few weeks and it never happens aga…

This is not how it works with these plants. Prolonged, sustained exposure results in worse symptoms over time as your immune response increases in intensity. https://www.pbsnc.org/blogs/science/poison-ivy-and-its-pals-...

From personal experience, exposure does not lead to lasting immunity. Quite the opposite. I've had several intense exposure rashes that were debilitating, like not being able to walk properly for a week due to leg swelling. And I still get rashes from poison oak.

Maybe there's a bit of short term immunity from severe exposure. I've never tested that since the discomfort from an intense rash makes me avoid exposure like the plague for a few years.

Re: I couldn't escape poison oak, so I started eating it

#75

Post by pclmulqdq »

modeless wrote: post #42
harimau777 wrote: post #36

Does anyone know why desensitization works for some allergies but for other things, like latex, the more you are exposed to them the more likely you are to develop an allergy?

It's not just the amount of exposure, it's the type. Skin exposure is generally sensitizing. Mouth exposure is generally desensitizing, as long as it is below the threshold that causes a severe reaction, and the exposure is more often than roughly twice weekly (the more often the better). This may be a reason why babies stick everything in their mouths. This is the basis of oral immunotherapy, and if you ate latex da…

Mithridatism is pretty well-studied at this point, and an allegist can likely help with any sort of desensitization that you do. Many common allergies have available therapies at this point.

Latex may be an exception depending on the mechanism of action, but almost all organic compounds that can be metabolized by your body can be adapted to.

Re: I couldn't escape poison oak, so I started eating it

#76

Post by georgeburdell »

AlbertCory wrote: post #40

Doctors are pretty much required to follow Establishment medicine. They're not going to tell you about folk remedies, because it could be malpractice for them. By way of contrast, I've told my doctor about sinus rinsing, and she was not disapproving. But she said, "a lot of my patients do this and they seem to like it." I think this is a better response than blanket disapproval. The corresponding response to urushiol…

Considering my doctor recommended acupuncture for my allergies, I don’t think this is true. Ah to live in a hippie area again…

Re: I couldn't escape poison oak, so I started eating it

#77

Post by throwaway290232 »

jandrewrogers wrote: post #44

You don't need to eat it. A well-known phenomenon in the US military is that some of the sites for Basic Training of new recruits have prodigious quantities of poison oak/ivy/sumac as the local flora. As consequence of the military training, you are rolling around in those plants daily. Initially, a large percentage of people have the usual reaction but it quickly disappears after a few weeks and it never happens aga…

[dead]

Re: I couldn't escape poison oak, so I started eating it

#78

Post by mschuster91 »

wawayanda wrote: post #22
michaelbuckbee wrote: post #18

Several kids in our family's social group have successfully undergone desensitization therapy for severe nut allergies. It was much more rigorous than the author's approach, with weekly doctor visits and taking increasingly large amounts of whatever they were allergic to (starting with micrograms of nut powder). I think my niece had the best time as she eventually was advised to start eating daily measured amounts of…

I have direct experience with this and it is indeed a miracle. What's interesting is that the protocol largely emerged outside the regulatory channels, with a handful of doctors worldwide developing it once the science became clear that exposure could help and more and more offering it to patients every year. These allergists have carefully figured out regimens that work and it can take a year of daily dosing, with d…

> There's still today another camp: Many allergists still preach avoidance however and put fear into worried parents about the dangers of oral immunotherapy.

Because immunotherapy can be dangerous, even when conducted in a doctor's office with supervision. I know two people with serious adverse effects requiring getting rushed to the ER.

We think we know a lot about the human body, and we do, but our immune and nervous system and its myriads of interaction paths are to a large part a mystery, with most of what we think we "know" being observed knowledge without understanding the foundation.

Re: I couldn't escape poison oak, so I started eating it

#79

Post by jelliclesfarm »

I have read that the urushiol is also present in the skin of the mango fruit.

I don’t know if those who consume a lot of mangoes or have grown up with mango trees around them are immune to poison oak’s urushiol(arguably much more concentrated) as its present in stems, saps, leaves, skin more than the flesh..but they likely have more tolerance.

Also..in India, we don’t burn mango leaves or branches as it increases respiratory risks..which ..now that I think about it..is likely due to the urushiol

Re: I couldn't escape poison oak, so I started eating it

#80

Post by echelon »

jandrewrogers wrote: post #63
taurusnoises wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not how it works with these plants. Prolonged, sustained exposure results in worse symptoms over time as your immune response increases in intensity. https://www.pbsnc.org/blogs/science/poison-ivy-and-its-pals-...

That link doesn't make a claim quite that strong. I also don't know anyone that has eaten it. Given that I know dozens of people who demonstrably lost their sensitivity to poison oak via the accidental chronic exposure regimen I outlined above, at the very least it should raise a scientific question. It would be easier to dismiss if it was an isolated case or two. No one exposes themselves like that intentionally.

> lost their sensitivity to poison oak via the accidental chronic exposure regimen

This is not how the immune system is known to work.

Sensitivity does not downregulate. Increased exposure enhances detection and response. Recognition proliferates. Once you're allergic to something, it'll only worsen.

You can become allergic to new things, but you won't lose allergies unless the recognizer population dies off entirely. And even if it did, you're likely close enough to training your immune system to this sensitivity again. (You've already done it at least once.)

It's a failure mode of adaptive immunity.

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