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"Outrageously" priced weight-loss drugs could bankrupt US health care

arstechnica.com

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Re: "Outrageously" priced weight-loss drugs could bankrupt US health care

#71

Post by adam_arthur »

pbj1968 wrote: post #35
adam_arthur wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure what you mean. You can sign up for compounded semaglutide from many online services (e.g. Ro https://ro.co/weight-loss/compounded-semaglutide/ ) It's still expensive, but far cheaper than brand name with similar efficacy. Competition from these programs will likely drive costs much lower over the next few years.

Absolutely nowhere on that page is mentioned what you’ll actually pay for the compounded drug. Spoiler - $300+/mo

Yes, less than half the price of brand name, and competition hasn't even really started.

These are first mover prices.

What's the monthly health cost of being obese?

Re: "Outrageously" priced weight-loss drugs could bankrupt US health care

#72

Post by nsagent »

ericd wrote: post #51
nsagent wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure what the right solution is, but making 160x the manufacturing cost seems a bit obscene. Not sure what the total cost of R&D was, but at that rate of return those R&D costs have to be recovered relatively quickly and then it becomes a pure profit machine.

Do you similarly object to the insane gross margins on software? Like in software, pretty sure the main expense is R&D.

The consumer costs are significantly lower for software. For example, the cost of ChatGPT is minuscule in comparison, while the R&D costs are still quite high.

The real difference between the two sectors is that for medicine, you have a captive audience. People are willing to give up their life savings for certain medical interventions. That same cannot be said for software.

Re: "Outrageously" priced weight-loss drugs could bankrupt US health care

#73

Post by zefalt »

moate wrote: post #62
zefalt wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Going to leave a link here to a reddit thread I ran across recently for the curious. https://old.reddit.com/r/unitedkingdom/comments/1cn8dy8/what... Look at how many times NHS is referenced and how it is viewed by those utilizing the system. In my opinion, socialized medicine tends to fail as the overall demand for healthcare will usually exceed the available supply in most societies. I'm sure there are counterexampl…

Your point is “we have too many sick people, let some of them die so the rich can keep their ease of access” and it’s gross. That’s what “demand” represents in this equation. Not people who want faster cars or different colored Stanley cups, but access to life saving drugs and treatment. I’m not saying para-socialized systems are better (it’s capitalism with a wig) but the “benefits” of capitalism are nowhere near eq…

I am a physician, and I am also entitled to my own opinions. You can take a moral highground if your want. But, I feel I know more about healthcare than most people on this public forum. I tend to deal in practicality.

And where do you see me praising mass death?

Further edit: I would go far enough to say you lack any understanding of our current healthcare system besides meaningless feelings on how it should be in a utopian society. Resources are not limitless. There is a continual shortage of healthcare providers which there are no good solutions for currently. If you don't want to address this reality, there is really nothing to address at all.

Re: "Outrageously" priced weight-loss drugs could bankrupt US health care

#74

Post by mcphage »

tomohelix wrote: post #69
A_D_E_P_T wrote: post #2

> A study by researchers at Yale estimated that drugs like Wegovy can be profitably manufactured for less than $5 per month. Serious question: Why not just bootleg the stuff? It's a very small protein, easy to make, and "research chemical" companies that sell structurally similar bodybuilding drugs and nootropics are a dime a dozen. Search online for "BPC-157" (a protein drug of only slightly inferior complexity) and…

Many reasons. One of them being doctors won't prescribe an off brand drug and insurance won't cover anything related to it. The other reasons are: 1/ Even the manufacturer doesn't know everything about how the drug was made. They characterize the final compound but the compound was made by some sort of living cells so each one has different properties. For the same molecule, one cell line may produce a drug with enti…

> insurance won't cover anything related to it

If the grey market is cheaper than you would pay for the real drug after insurance’s contribution, who cares?

Re: "Outrageously" priced weight-loss drugs could bankrupt US health care

#75

Post by redwoolf »

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #54
redwoolf wrote: post #11

The USA should nationalize the health care industry and all the pharmaceutical companies. Illness should not be a source of profit.

> Illness should not be a source of profit. Exactly. Let's take this further. Nobody should be making money off other people's suffering. So. Let's also zero out doctor's and nurse's salaries. Hospital administrator's salaries. This would also apply to all charities that try to alleviate any suffering. No administrator should make any money off other people's suffering. The only profitable enterprise should be showin…

This is a very disingenuous argument. There's a huge difference between a doctor making $300k a year and a relatively small amount of people making millions (or billions) selling easily mass produced chemicals at prices that can't be afforded out-of-pocket. And you know this, but you think you're being clever. It's not clever.

Re: "Outrageously" priced weight-loss drugs could bankrupt US health care

#76

Post by redwoolf »

andsoitis wrote: post #25
redwoolf wrote: post #11

The USA should nationalize the health care industry and all the pharmaceutical companies. Illness should not be a source of profit.

> The USA should nationalize the health care industry and all the pharmaceutical companies. Novo Nordisk is a Danish company. Read that again: it is European.

Not really sure what that has to do with anything. It would be easy for the USA to keep Novo Nordisk from doing business within its borders and have a nationalized pharmaceutical company produce the drugs at cost.

Re: "Outrageously" priced weight-loss drugs could bankrupt US health care

#77

Post by redwoolf »

bottlepalm wrote: post #28
redwoolf wrote: post #11

The USA should nationalize the health care industry and all the pharmaceutical companies. Illness should not be a source of profit.

Like education, government involvement only causes prices to go up. Why wouldn't they? The government has unlimited money. The education and healthcare industry beats the government like a money pinata. Why would you suggest more government to a government created problem? Usually because people don't realize the government as the root cause in the first place. Get the government out, let people actually pay for thei…

> Capitalism actually works if you let it.

This argument is always that if the government would just step out of the way the private market would provide for everyone and there would be full employment. As though somehow things like minimum wages and OSHA are what keep capitalism from reaching its full potential. As though things were better in the 19th century.

I've read Friedman and Hayek. The world they wanted is a terrifying world indeed.

Re: "Outrageously" priced weight-loss drugs could bankrupt US health care

#78

Post by redwoolf »

3abiton wrote: post #42
redwoolf wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When it comes to pharmaceuticals, the patents are ridiculous. Take for example Contrave[0]. It is a combination of Naltrexone and Bupropion, both of which are no longer under a patent. Put them both in the same pill and it's under a new patent. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naltrexone/bupropion

So buying them separately and mixing them in your mouth is legal? It's like combining 2 pieces of open-source software and selling them under one product.

Totally legal. You can have your doctor prescribe 50mg Naltrexone and 300mg Bupropion and you can take them at the same time every day. It's the same drugs in the same ratios. Contrave is not novel in any way. There's substantial prior art. And yet a patent was granted to cover this combination and prevent anyone else from taking two generic drugs and combining them into one pill.

Re: "Outrageously" priced weight-loss drugs could bankrupt US health care

#79

Post by redwoolf »

zefalt wrote: post #56
redwoolf wrote: post #11

The USA should nationalize the health care industry and all the pharmaceutical companies. Illness should not be a source of profit.

Going to leave a link here to a reddit thread I ran across recently for the curious. https://old.reddit.com/r/unitedkingdom/comments/1cn8dy8/what... Look at how many times NHS is referenced and how it is viewed by those utilizing the system. In my opinion, socialized medicine tends to fail as the overall demand for healthcare will usually exceed the available supply in most societies. I'm sure there are counterexampl…

> I think the benefits of a capitalist healthcare system are underappreciated

What benefits? The benefit of mortgaging your home to pay for cancer treatment? The benefit of having your access to healthcare directly tied to your employment (especially considering that many wage workers are kept from working more than 35 hours a week lest they become eligible for employee sponsored health plans)? The benefit of having folks like Martin Shkreli corner the market on generic drugs and raise the prices, not because manufacturing costs have risen but because they are seeking windfall profits?

Seriously, what benefits? We have this silly notion that capitalism provides us with choice, and that this choice is a desirable good in itself. Choice is overrated. Health care is a commodity. You walk into any doctor with a broken arm, diabetes, COVID, pneumonia, depression, or any one of hundreds of other maladies, and the treatment for those will be the same regardless of the physician or the hospital or the clinic.

Re: "Outrageously" priced weight-loss drugs could bankrupt US health care

#80

Post by redwoolf »

zefalt wrote: post #73
moate wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your point is “we have too many sick people, let some of them die so the rich can keep their ease of access” and it’s gross. That’s what “demand” represents in this equation. Not people who want faster cars or different colored Stanley cups, but access to life saving drugs and treatment. I’m not saying para-socialized systems are better (it’s capitalism with a wig) but the “benefits” of capitalism are nowhere near eq…

I am a physician, and I am also entitled to my own opinions. You can take a moral highground if your want. But, I feel I know more about healthcare than most people on this public forum. I tend to deal in practicality. And where do you see me praising mass death? Further edit: I would go far enough to say you lack any understanding of our current healthcare system besides meaningless feelings on how it should be in a…

A good start to fixing the shortage of healthcare providers would be to permit more medical schools, allow more students in per year, and reduce the cost of an MD. Because medical school costs so much, more and more graduates are going into specialties because they won't make enough to cover their loans and live comfortably as a family doctor or general practitioner.
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