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Stuck due to “knowing too much”

programmers.stackexchange.com

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Re: Stuck due to “knowing too much”

#71

Post by recursive »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #13
frankc wrote: post #7

The moderation on programmers.stackexchange.com is completely overbearing. How can a question about analysis paralysis be closed for off-topic? If stackoverflow is for technical question/answer, what is the point the linked stackexchange if not for discussion of a common programmer problem like this? I see stuff like this closed all time time and it's really annoying.

Ditto for StackOverflow itself? I just can't understand why so often a really valuable topic that collects insightful answers gets closed up because of not fitting some template. Also, I don't get the idea of "protected questions" - the ones marked by: "This question is protected to prevent "thanks!", "me too!", or spam answers by new users. To answer it, you must have earned at least 10 reputation on this site." Wha…

As a stack overflow old-timer, I can tell you that questions that get a lot of hits from outside, (e.g. popular searches, blog post links) tend to get more visitors that are not familiar with how the site works. Many of them assume it's like a discussion board and post "answers" thanking another poster or asking a different question. I've seen this many times. It's not really offensive to claim that people new to the site are likely to be less familiar with how its intended to work.

Re: Stuck due to “knowing too much”

#72

Post by pooriaazimi »

sklivvz1971 wrote: post #53
pooriaazimi wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

WOW! I looked it up now[1] and it seems that this kind of questions are supposed to be asked on programmers.etackexchange.com! This is what FAQ says. 2nd, 4th, 7th and 8th are exactly what this question is about! """ Programmers — Stack Exchange is a site for professional programmers who are interested in getting expert answers on conceptual questions about software development. If you have a question about... """ 1…

You pick on people here, where they won't see/answer? And _they_ are bozos? Get real.

Don't take it so seriously; I said it half-jokingly (well, actually, completely jokingly!). I like how Steve Jobs called everyone he disagreed with a 'bozo', and I imitated him here :-)

BTW, as that discussion is closed now, we can't directly (and publicly) communicate with those mods there; so here is the only place we can rant (that is, unless there is a meta-programmers.stackexchange.com for meta discussions).

Re: Stuck due to “knowing too much”

#73

Post by philoushka »

spolsky wrote: post #50
frankc wrote: post #7

The moderation on programmers.stackexchange.com is completely overbearing. How can a question about analysis paralysis be closed for off-topic? If stackoverflow is for technical question/answer, what is the point the linked stackexchange if not for discussion of a common programmer problem like this? I see stuff like this closed all time time and it's really annoying.

This is a rambling discussion, which Stack Exchange is not really intended for. There are lots of good places to have rambling discussions. We focus on answerable questions with specific answers, not long-winded, open-ended conversation starters. There are plenty of other sites for long-winded, open-ended conversation starters, including Reddit and Hacker News. After a decade or so of operating sites for programmers…

I often see soft discussion on consumery sites like apple.SE and DIY.SE.

My instincts are to vote to close, but there are just too many. Kind of makes me sad when I go to their metas, and the mods there are most definitely StackOverflow users. It seems the same standards aren't applied across the SE board. Myabe this is not a bad thing because building community, etc.

Re: Stuck due to “knowing too much”

#74

Post by spolsky »

praptak wrote: post #55
spolsky wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a rambling discussion, which Stack Exchange is not really intended for. There are lots of good places to have rambling discussions. We focus on answerable questions with specific answers, not long-winded, open-ended conversation starters. There are plenty of other sites for long-winded, open-ended conversation starters, including Reddit and Hacker News. After a decade or so of operating sites for programmers…

Stack Exchange in general - yes, definitely, couldn't agree more, please keep it that way! But Programmers? Programmers is and always was an exception. Seriously, almost none of the questions are answerable with specific answers. It is a pit of vague non-answerable questions that don't degrade into flamewars only because they are boring . What kind of fabric is best for covering programmers' chairs?

although programmers.SE was originally meant to be the "anything goes" dumping ground for subjective conversations to get them off of Stack Overflow, that is not its current mission. See the FAQ (http://programmers.stackexchange.com/faq)

Re: Stuck due to “knowing too much”

#75

Post by JohnMcG »

spolsky wrote: post #50
frankc wrote: post #7

The moderation on programmers.stackexchange.com is completely overbearing. How can a question about analysis paralysis be closed for off-topic? If stackoverflow is for technical question/answer, what is the point the linked stackexchange if not for discussion of a common programmer problem like this? I see stuff like this closed all time time and it's really annoying.

This is a rambling discussion, which Stack Exchange is not really intended for. There are lots of good places to have rambling discussions. We focus on answerable questions with specific answers, not long-winded, open-ended conversation starters. There are plenty of other sites for long-winded, open-ended conversation starters, including Reddit and Hacker News. After a decade or so of operating sites for programmers…

I think the reason I find myself resisting this is that what you are saying is that you don't want us as whole people, you just want the specific parts of us that "make Stack Overflow great."

This desire is understandable. I sure would like to pick and choose the aspects of people's personalities that I had to deal with. But, in most cases, life doesn't work that way.

In some cases, asking us to leave behind parts of our personalities is a reasonable request. An obvious example is our employers. They want our coding ability, and would prefer we leave our sports fandom, musical choices, political opinions, relationship issues, etc. at the door before we come into the office. And since they're paying us, they get to make that request. If, say, a significant other told me to go be a sports fan somewhere else, I would probably take her up on that request, and also take along the aspects of my personality she does like.

But Stack Exchange is not paying us. Our rewards are the good feeling of helping someone out, and being part of something. Heck, you wanted to charge us money to leverage our SE work into employment opportunities.

That being the case, by locking us down like this, you are opening yourself up to competition from another site that welcomes us as whole people, not just the parts that help your site be awesome.

I want to be in places where I can be myself, which might include chuckling at the same old jokes or discussing how much my job sucks. The more SO/SE is a place where I cannot be myself, the less desirable a place it is for me to be.

One of the things SE/SO claims to be about is building a community. Well, guess what. Communities are groups of people not just their expertise in a given subject.

Re: Stuck due to “knowing too much”

#76

Post by sklivvz1971 »

pooriaazimi wrote: post #72
sklivvz1971 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You pick on people here, where they won't see/answer? And _they_ are bozos? Get real.

Don't take it so seriously; I said it half-jokingly (well, actually, completely jokingly!). I like how Steve Jobs called everyone he disagreed with a 'bozo', and I imitated him here :-) BTW, as that discussion is closed now, we can't directly ( and publicly) communicate with those mods there; so here is the only place we can rant (that is, unless there is a meta-programmers.stackexchange.com for meta discussions).

I can assure you they read you (now!)

Re: Stuck due to “knowing too much”

#77

Post by frankc »

spolsky wrote: post #50
frankc wrote: post #7

The moderation on programmers.stackexchange.com is completely overbearing. How can a question about analysis paralysis be closed for off-topic? If stackoverflow is for technical question/answer, what is the point the linked stackexchange if not for discussion of a common programmer problem like this? I see stuff like this closed all time time and it's really annoying.

This is a rambling discussion, which Stack Exchange is not really intended for. There are lots of good places to have rambling discussions. We focus on answerable questions with specific answers, not long-winded, open-ended conversation starters. There are plenty of other sites for long-winded, open-ended conversation starters, including Reddit and Hacker News. After a decade or so of operating sites for programmers…

I agree with you as it pertains to stackoverflow. I vote to close non-technical stuff all the time there I appreciate that is kept technical q/a. I do not agree about programmers. This particular question was long-winded but it boils down to "What are effective strategies for countering analysis-paralysis"? If that is not a relevant question for programmers than I don't what is. I'd rather just ignore that particular stackexchange and stick to stackoverflow then.

Re: Stuck due to “knowing too much”

#78

Post by tikhonj »

fennecfoxen wrote: post #62
spolsky wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a rambling discussion, which Stack Exchange is not really intended for. There are lots of good places to have rambling discussions. We focus on answerable questions with specific answers, not long-winded, open-ended conversation starters. There are plenty of other sites for long-winded, open-ended conversation starters, including Reddit and Hacker News. After a decade or so of operating sites for programmers…

If there's a meta.stackoverflow.com, have you considered some sort of socialization.stackoverflow.com? Then you can not only say "buzz off" but specifically give someone a place to buzz off to. It'd be one of those pragmatic concessions that keeps the idealism moving along and whatnot :)

That's what the chat rooms are for[1].

[1]: http://blog.stackoverflow.com/2010/04/do-trilogy-sites-need-...

I really like the "third place" idea, but I don't think the chat rooms have been successful in realizing it. Unfortunately, people just don't use them very much--even the StackOverflow rooms rarely have anybody to talk to.

I think the fundamental problem is that discussion in other parts of the site is asynchronous, like email, while the chat rooms aren't. The comments and posts stick around and allow people to talk about something across a longer period of time, which also allows more people to join the discussion. On the other hand, chat happens immediately--it only works for the people who are there at the moment and only works while everybody is on.

There is, of course, nothing wrong with chat in general. I just don't think it's the best match for the SE format.

Re: Stuck due to “knowing too much”

#79

Post by h84ru3a »

The ideal to strive for is what we call the "Goldielocks effect".

Not knowing too little. Not knowing too much. Knowing just enough to get the job done.

In computing there will always be multiple solutions, and tradeoffs. What you want to aim for is "The simplest solution possible."

In my experience, this is really hard for most developers. Maybe the smart thing to do is find someone who makes it look easy and trust their judgment. Again, my experience is that most developers are reluctant to do this.

The question is not how much someone knows, it's whether they know "enough" to get the job done. Goldielocks.

Re: Stuck due to “knowing too much”

#80

Post by LnxPrgr3 »

wpietri wrote: post #40
angdis wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I agree that very often interesting topics get closed, they DO HAVE a good reason for doing so. The intent of all the stack-exchange sites is to provide a high-quality resource of _answers_ for specific _questions_. If "the answer" to a question ends up being a divergent discussion, then not closing responses invites more of these types of questions. Over time that will subvert the intent of stack-exchange. The…

Honestly, the original intent of a startup almost doesn't mater. What a business does is always an intersection of what the producers and the consumers want. If users want something divergent but reasonable, the answer shouldn't be, "Well, fuck you then." The right response is, "Boy, that's a a great opportunity." As proof, look at Friendster. They owned the social networking space before Facebook even existed. But i…

The original intent of a startup doesn't matter much if your real goal is just to get a lot of users and sell them to advertisers. Then, who cares what you build, as long as it attracts users? The original intent matters a lot more if your goal is to build something you want to see exist.

I, for one, am glad Stack Overflow is the site that it is today. There are plenty of other places on the Web for more open discussion… like here, for instance.

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