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Whole-body magnetic resonance imaging at 0.05 Tesla

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Re: Whole-body magnetic resonance imaging at 0.05 Tesla

#71
post #24

A few months ago there were articles going around about how Samsung galaxy phones were upscaling images of the Moon using AI [0]. Essentially, the model was artificially adding landmarks and details based on its training set when the real image quality was too poor to make out details. Needless to say, AI upscaling as described in this article would be a nightmare for radiologists. 90% of radiology is confirming the…

The Samsung phone wasn’t a technological advancement, it was sheer fraud. A camera is supposed to take pictures of what it sees. Imagine going to a restaurant, ordering French onion soup, and getting a bowl of brown food coloring in water.

> A camera is supposed to take pictures of what it sees.

If people wanted cameras to actually take what it sees, then we wouldn't have autofocus, photoshop or instagram filters.

The goal of a cell phone camera is to capture what you are experiencing, not to literally record what light strikes the cmos chip.

Re: Whole-body magnetic resonance imaging at 0.05 Tesla

#72

I'm a radiologist and very sceptic about low-field MRI + ML actually replacing normal high-field MRI for standard diagnostic purposes. But in a emergency setting or especially for MRI-guided interventions these low-field MRIs can really play a significant role. Combining these low-field MRIs with rapid imaging techniques makes me really excited about what interventional techniques become possible.

What is it about lower fields that means you cannot get a good image? Interference? Tissue movement in longer exposures? Why can't the device just integrate over a longer period of time?

Re: Whole-body magnetic resonance imaging at 0.05 Tesla

#73
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Samsung phone wasn’t a technological advancement, it was sheer fraud. A camera is supposed to take pictures of what it sees. Imagine going to a restaurant, ordering French onion soup, and getting a bowl of brown food coloring in water.

> A camera is supposed to take pictures of what it sees. If people wanted cameras to actually take what it sees, then we wouldn't have autofocus, photoshop or instagram filters. The goal of a cell phone camera is to capture what you are experiencing, not to literally record what light strikes the cmos chip.

A camera takes a picture of what it sees. What comes next is a different thing all together.

Re: Whole-body magnetic resonance imaging at 0.05 Tesla

#74
post #8

Medical imaging devices and medical devices in general are a racket. There are only a few companies and they are legal and lobbying departments first and foremost. This isn't the first time radical and radically cheaper prototypes have been proposed, but the unsolved bit it actually convincing anyone to buy. A colleague had a device and a veteran adviced him to 10x the price.

> the unsolved bit it actually convincing anyone to buy. Surely a lot of small hospitals would jump at the chance at a small cheap MRI? I don't understand how the incumbents have much legal leverage here...

It's about insurance, certification of personnel, often these technicians are a cartel in an of themselves.

Everybody loves the idea of cheaper stuff, but nobody is going to take a chance. Medicine is extremely conservative. Overly in my opinion.

Re: Whole-body magnetic resonance imaging at 0.05 Tesla

#75

It is just weird that papers like this can be published. "Deep learning signal prediction effectively eliminated EMI signals, enabling clear imaging without shielding." - this means that they have found a way to remove random noise, which if true, should be the truly revolutionary claim in this paper. If the "EMI" is not random you can just filter it so you don't need what they are doing. If it isn't random, whatever…

Remember the early atomic age when people were doing wild shit like adding radium to your toothpaste so you can brush your teeth in the dark?

This is that, but again, with AI.

Re: Whole-body magnetic resonance imaging at 0.05 Tesla

#77

It is just weird that papers like this can be published. "Deep learning signal prediction effectively eliminated EMI signals, enabling clear imaging without shielding." - this means that they have found a way to remove random noise, which if true, should be the truly revolutionary claim in this paper. If the "EMI" is not random you can just filter it so you don't need what they are doing. If it isn't random, whatever…

I'm a professional MR physicist. I genuinely think the profession is hugely up the hype curve with "AI" and to a far lesser extent low field. It's also worth saying that the rigorous, "proper" journal in the field is Magnetic Resonance in Medicine, run by the international society of magnetic resonance in medicine -- and that papers in nature or science generally nowadays tend to be at the extreme gimmicky end of the spectrum.

A) Many MR reconstructions work by having a "physics model", typically in the form of a linear operator, acting upon the required data. The "OG" recon, an FT, is literally just a Fourier matrix acting on the data. Then people realised that it's possible to I) encode lots of artefacts, and ii) undersample k-space while using the spatial information using different physical rf coils, and shunt both these things into the framework of linear operators. This makes it possible to reconstruct it-- and Tikhonov regularisation became popular -- so you have an equation like argmin _theta (yhat - X_1 X_2 X_3.... X_n y) + lambda Laplace(y) to minimise, which does genuinely a fantastic job at the expense, usually, of non normal noise in the image. "AI" can out perform these algorithms a little, usually by having a strong prior on what the image is. I think it's helpful to consider this as some sort of upper bound on what there is to find. But as a warning, I've seen images of sneezes turned into knees with torn anterior cruciate ligaments, a matrix of zeros turned into basically the mean heart of a dataset, and a fuck ton of people talking bollocks empowered by AI. This isn't starting on diagnosis -- just image recon. The major driver is reducing scan time (=cost), required SNR (=sqrt(scan time)) or/and, rarely measuring new things that take too long. This almost falls into the second category

The main conference in the field has just happened and ironically the closing plenty was about the risks of AI, as it happens.

B) Low field itself has a few genuinely good advantages. The T2 is longer, the risks to the patient with implants are lower, and the machines may be cheaper to make. I'm not sold on that last one at all. I personally think that the bloody cost of the scanner isn't the few km of superconducting wires in it -- it's the tens of thousands of phd-educated hours of labour that went into making the thing and their large infrastructure requirements, to say nothing of the requirements of the people who look at the pictures. There are about 100-250k scanners in the world and they mostly last about a decade in an institution before being recycled -- either as niobium titanium or as a scanner on a different continent (typically). Low field may help with siting and electricity, but comes at the cost of concomitant field gradients, reduced chemical shift dispersion, a whole set of different (complicated) artefacts, and the same load of companies profiteering from them.

Re: Whole-body magnetic resonance imaging at 0.05 Tesla

#78
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Compressed sensing is far more mathematically rigorous.

I don't think we know what's in the black box here. It could be an equivalent relatively unopinionated regularizer ("the pixel domain will be locally smooth, to the extent it has edges they're spatially contiguous") or it could be "just look up the most similar image from a library and present that instead" or anywhere in between. :)

They specifically said they use deep learning which implies a sizeable neural network.

Re: Whole-body magnetic resonance imaging at 0.05 Tesla

#79
I can't read the full article but low-T MRI is potentially a big deal IMO because a 0.05T magnetic coil can be air or water-cooled but higher T-magnets (like 1.5 and 3T MRI magnets) have to use superconducting wire and thus must be cooled to sub 60K temperatures (even down to sub 10K) using Helium refrigeration cycles. I worked for a time at a company that made MRI calibration standards (among many other things).

helium refrigeration cycle equals:

- elaborate and expensive cryogenic engineering in the MRI overall design.

- lots of power for the helium refrigeration cycle.

- requirements for pure helium supply chain, which is not possible in many parts of the world, including areas of Europe, North America, etc.

Re: Whole-body magnetic resonance imaging at 0.05 Tesla

#80

I think this could be useful as a starting point for diagnostics - a cheaper, lower-power device massively lowers the barrier to entry to getting an MRI scan, even if it's not fully reliable. If it does find something, that's evidence a higher-quality scan is worth the resources. In short, use the worse device to take a quick look, if it finds anything, then take a closer look. If it doesn't find anything, carry on w…

Is cost of machines really barrier? I can get MRI for $400-$500 as a self payer (Eastern Europe, i.e. if i just wanted it, not that doctor would say he wants it).

I read a paper few years ago about utilization rate, machine/service cost, how many machines per citizen/hospital... They were running day and night. Cursory glance at other countries also reveal sensible prices.

Unless it gets to a point of ultra sound machine(i.e. machine in a the consulting room a doctor can use in 10 minutes), I don't think it will decrease price much.

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