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The Ivy League and other elite private colleges are losing esteem

natesilver.net

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Re: The Ivy League and other elite private colleges are losing esteem

#71

Post by paulpauper »

ken47 wrote: post #64

If they're losing esteem, it's because of the purity of education is fading. First, tuitions are becoming outrageous. The mixture of profit motive and higher education has an unpleasant odor. Then, there are the numerous academic integrity scandals among now-infamous scholars at Ivies or similar, such as Marc Tessier-Lavigne, Dan Ariely, etc., and a general feeling that the overwhelming pressure for novel discoveries…

Why something could happen is not the same as it happening. There are a lot of reasons for elite schools to lose prestige, but it's not happening or no evidence. Lesser-ranked schools also have those problems, so elite schools still stand out.

Re: The Ivy League and other elite private colleges are losing esteem

#72

Post by JumpCrisscross »

smt88 wrote: post #68
afavour wrote: post #13

I think I agree with Nate’s advice (skip the Ivies, go to a good state school) but I don’t agree with the reasons why. I don’t think elite private colleges are losing esteem at all (the recent noise about pro-Palestinian protests will be forgotten five minutes after they stop, just like all the other campus protest movements in decades past, this isn’t new!), I just think the economic argument is getting harder and h…

The closest campus protest movement to the current one was against the Vietnam War, and people didn't quickly forget it.

> closest campus protest movement to the current one was against the Vietnam War

The Student Strike of 1970 was an order of magnitude larger than today's Gaza protests, 900+ campuses participating [1] versus around 50 [2]. It was also culturally accentuated by the Kent State shootings [3] and draft.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Student_strike_of_1970

[2] https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2024-college-pro-palestin...

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings

Re: The Ivy League and other elite private colleges are losing esteem

#73

Post by ken47 »

paulpauper wrote: post #71
ken47 wrote: post #64

If they're losing esteem, it's because of the purity of education is fading. First, tuitions are becoming outrageous. The mixture of profit motive and higher education has an unpleasant odor. Then, there are the numerous academic integrity scandals among now-infamous scholars at Ivies or similar, such as Marc Tessier-Lavigne, Dan Ariely, etc., and a general feeling that the overwhelming pressure for novel discoveries…

Why something could happen is not the same as it happening. There are a lot of reasons for elite schools to lose prestige, but it's not happening or no evidence. Lesser-ranked schools also have those problems, so elite schools still stand out.

If you're going to compare them to lesser ranked schools, sure. But the feeling is that, if a rising tide lifts all boat, the tide has been falling in this case, and top-ranked schools have a lot more to lose.

Re: The Ivy League and other elite private colleges are losing esteem

#74

Post by titanomachy »

wredue wrote: post #33
jacobn wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless of course: “Public perceptions of higher education have declined rapidly, and I expect the problems to get worse.” turns out to be the case (Which it probably won’t)

It absolutely is the case for Nate, who has a vested interest in attacking education.

What vested interest is that?

Re: The Ivy League and other elite private colleges are losing esteem

#75

Post by hilux »

Aunche wrote: post #55
hilux wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get your point, but Ivies (and other rich private schools) offer dramatically better financial aid to "middle class" students than most state schools do. E.g. most students who qualify for aid would take on less debt to attend Stanford or an Ivy than to attend, say, UC Berkeley. Or pick some other state school, since Cal has had its share of protests.

If you can get into an Ivy, you can probably get at least a full tuition scholarship for most in state universities.

That's not true at all. Most state schools don't have that kind of money to hand out, and even if they did, tuition is less than half of the total annual cost.

Re: The Ivy League and other elite private colleges are losing esteem

#76

Post by Kon-Peki »

I think that Silver’s view of state schools is a bit rosy due to growing up as a child of a Big Ten university professor.

The Big Ten schools and the UC system stand apart from all other state schools when it comes to research dollars spent. They give up nothing to the Ivies in terms of opportunity on campus. After graduating, though? It’s less clear to me.

Re: The Ivy League and other elite private colleges are losing esteem

#77

Post by wakawaka28 »

hilux wrote: post #22

That is such a confused spaghetti of arguments, I don't even know where to start. One thing is clear (to me, if not to Nate): people don't base their decision to attend Harvard, Stanford, Columbia, or UChicago based on popularity polls of the unwashed masses. And the same goes for the recruiting teams at Google, Goldman, etc.

One thing is clear to me (if not to you): These schools live on their reputations, and if you have to rely on biases of alumni of similar gilded brainwashing centers to make it worthwhile, it truly is not worth the money. Also, people who call everyone who didn't go to get annointed at such a money pit "unwashed" are so far up their own asses that they cannot possibly grasp what a waste of money it was to go there in the first place.

Re: The Ivy League and other elite private colleges are losing esteem

#78

Post by edanm »

sandspar wrote: post #51

I'm reading the comments here and it's remarkable how few people seem to have felt the vibe shift. The vibe began shifting like a year and a half ago and it's getting more widespread by the day. Zoomer males, future leaders, are thinking very different thoughts from the rest of society.

I mean, the vibe might be shifting. But if you're thinking it began to shift only a year and a half ago, I think that's why you might feel you're out of whack with other people here.

The case against universities, against higher education, against ivy leagues etc, has been a topic of conversation for years. Most of my life I think. I don't know how many pieces I've read about why higher education is now going to become less relevant.

Re: The Ivy League and other elite private colleges are losing esteem

#79

Post by chmod600 »

How are these kinds of self-reinforcing systems usually brought down?

I doubt some shifts in the opinions of normal people are going to stop the elite flywheel -- there's just not enough connection between a machinist in Ohio or a nurse in Phoenix and the elite for their opinions to matter.

The Ivy League can fall apart one of two ways:

1. The levers of power move around to new groups of people radically enough that the jobs that were once elite are now irrelevant and forgotten, like a guild for some forgotten craft. AI is obviously one way this might happen, where many elite professions might just collapse.

2. Internal bickering over identity that just makes it impossible for normal people to attend. Think crazy stuff like requiring graduates to share their income for life with other graduates, or requiring some weird kind of binding pledge about who you can work for. Colleges already have a weird possessiveness over their graduates, this just takes that to the logical next level.

Re: The Ivy League and other elite private colleges are losing esteem

#80

Post by sandspar »

edanm wrote: post #78
sandspar wrote: post #51

I'm reading the comments here and it's remarkable how few people seem to have felt the vibe shift. The vibe began shifting like a year and a half ago and it's getting more widespread by the day. Zoomer males, future leaders, are thinking very different thoughts from the rest of society.

I mean, the vibe might be shifting. But if you're thinking it began to shift only a year and a half ago, I think that's why you might feel you're out of whack with other people here. The case against universities, against higher education, against ivy leagues etc, has been a topic of conversation for years. Most of my life I think. I don't know how many pieces I've read about why higher education is now going to beco…

Many parts of the underground started going to the overground about that time. The stuff that only weirdos talked about eight years ago is becoming common parlance.
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