Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Tesla's 2M car Autopilot recall is now under federal scrutiny

arstechnica.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

71–80 of 90 posts

Re: Tesla's 2M car Autopilot recall is now under federal scrutiny

#71

Post by bangaladore »

FireBeyond wrote: post #63
bangaladore wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The IIHS has repeatedly shown that Tesla airbags are the best in class. Deploying airbags when not needed can do significant harm to occupants. Not to mention total vehicles for no good reason. There isn't a need to wonder when independent data gatherers have already answered the question.

> The IIHS has repeatedly shown that Tesla airbags are the best in class. No they haven't. For a start, IIHS doesn't rank "airbags". And then... Tesla fans love to latch on to this as a trope. The IIHS -groups- vehicles into safety levels by class. It doesn't rank in class, at all. So what, you might say, they're still in the top or top two safety levels, they deserve credit... Except: There are twenty one other vehi…

I think you are misrepresenting the actual IIHS results.

For example, the Model Y is one of five cars that achieved the highest rating in its size class, not one of 16. You are grouping their highest and second-highest tiers together.

Additionally, the Model Y is by and far the cheapest vehicle in that category.

So, yes. If you consider a car to be classified by size and price, I think it is a very reasonable way to classify a car, the Model Y is very clearly the best in its class.

Re: Tesla's 2M car Autopilot recall is now under federal scrutiny

#72

Post by dzhiurgis »

kurthr wrote: post #39
bottlepalm wrote: post #23

I'd rather be driving on the road with Autopilot cars than the impatient drivers, road ragers, distracted people on their phone, and people who drive like they're in a video game. I drive with it on 95% on the time, and I really only need to interrupt when it's too slow and too cautious.

I generally agree it does great on freeways, but not in urban situations where there are tight corners and lots of parked cars, or rural areas with twisty roads and farm equipment. I'd turn it off in construction areas too.

It straight up useless in urban areas. Even some country roads that are too windy/hilly it will become more of a babysit than yourself.

I agree on highway. Easily 95% use, likely more.

Re: Tesla's 2M car Autopilot recall is now under federal scrutiny

#73

Post by dzhiurgis »

loudmax wrote: post #7

If Tesla hadn't named their driver assistance system "Autopilot" they would have saved so much trouble (not to mention lives).

Not sure. Anyone who used it for a mere hour would understand its limitations immediately.

Otherwise - all systems can be abused.

Re: Tesla's 2M car Autopilot recall is now under federal scrutiny

#74

Post by FireBeyond »

bangaladore wrote: post #71
FireBeyond wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The IIHS has repeatedly shown that Tesla airbags are the best in class. No they haven't. For a start, IIHS doesn't rank "airbags". And then... Tesla fans love to latch on to this as a trope. The IIHS -groups- vehicles into safety levels by class. It doesn't rank in class, at all. So what, you might say, they're still in the top or top two safety levels, they deserve credit... Except: There are twenty one other vehi…

I think you are misrepresenting the actual IIHS results. For example, the Model Y is one of five cars that achieved the highest rating in its size class, not one of 16. You are grouping their highest and second-highest tiers together. Additionally, the Model Y is by and far the cheapest vehicle in that category. So, yes. If you consider a car to be classified by size and price, I think it is a very reasonable way to…

> For example, the Model Y is one of five cars that achieved the highest rating in its size class, not one of 16. You are grouping their highest and second-highest tiers together.

Who said I was talking about the Y? (I also specifically said that I was grouping them ("they're still in the top or top two safety levels"), because IIHS has "Top Safety Pick+", "Top Safety Pick" and "Others". Though I have been looking at 2023. But let's break it down:

Tesla Model 3: Didn't make the cut.

Model S: Didn't make the cut.

> So, yes. If you consider a car to be classified by size and price, I think it is a very reasonable way to classify a car, the Model Y is very clearly the best in its class.

"So yes" implies a logical conclusion. But your initial point was "IIHS says Tesla has the best airbags in class", which it does not.

For one model of car it says that it is in the top five of that segment.

But then somehow you blow that out to be "clearly, best in class, because it's cheapest".

Like, no. The other cars in the category could have better safety than the Model Y. And if your argument is "its best because its cheapest" when it comes to safety? Wow. Huh. I suppose we all know the safest components are the cheapest?

Re: Tesla's 2M car Autopilot recall is now under federal scrutiny

#75

Post by jeffbee »

bangaladore wrote: post #70
jeffbee wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And you believe that federal regulators have simply never heard of these other systems? A more likely explanation is that the driver attention monitoring in a Honda or Cadillac or whatever works better than Tesla's.

You seem to have misunderstood me. I'm talking about vehicles without attention monitoring systems. Most cars sold in the past ten years technically have "Level-2" driving features but with no driver monitoring systems. Tesla autopilot / FSD is immensely more capable than 99% of LKAS systems, so maybe that's why regulators care more. But from a pure attentiveness standpoint, 1000 other car models have grossly worse s…

Can you name such a vehicle? My personal car with lane keeping and TACC insists that you keep your hands on the wheel.

Re: Tesla's 2M car Autopilot recall is now under federal scrutiny

#76

Post by bangaladore »

jeffbee wrote: post #75
bangaladore wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to have misunderstood me. I'm talking about vehicles without attention monitoring systems. Most cars sold in the past ten years technically have "Level-2" driving features but with no driver monitoring systems. Tesla autopilot / FSD is immensely more capable than 99% of LKAS systems, so maybe that's why regulators care more. But from a pure attentiveness standpoint, 1000 other car models have grossly worse s…

Can you name such a vehicle? My personal car with lane keeping and TACC insists that you keep your hands on the wheel.

I might be mistaken about cars requiring no input, but isn't just steering sensing a problem? The car does not know if it is you or a weight on the steering wheel. Or if you are on your phone touching the wheel with your knee.

According to the NHTSA, Tesla was forced to enable driver monitoring via a camera because sensing driver steering input was insufficient.

So, without a doubt, 10s of millions of cars have "insufficient" driver monitoring while having "level 2" capability. Should those cars not be recalled and the feature be disabled (or updated to more aggressive monitoring if appropriate hardware exists)?

To be clear, I fully support driver monitoring for ADAS to whatever extent regulations require. But picking and choosing who to enforce the rules suggests they aren't working for the general public's best interest.

Re: Tesla's 2M car Autopilot recall is now under federal scrutiny

#77

Post by Dylan16807 »

grecy wrote: post #53
Dylan16807 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a picture of a crashed car. Unless you're claiming the system doesn't crash now, a picture from 2018 is just as good as a picture from last week. It's not a main piece of evidence, it's an example. The evidence is in the text of the article where it talks about hundreds of crashes. As to your questions, as long as the issue in the article applies to the model in the picture, all of those are fine. I'd want a new…

It's like showing a video of an iPhone taking ages to load a web page or a very grainy photo that it took.. but it's from a 5 year old iPhone. FSD has come a LONG way in 5 years. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43Lrrhn0CMk

It's more like showing someone holding the iPhone taking a picture.

Unless you're saying the way it crashes is qualitatively different now, in a way that you can see just looking at the car afterwards? They're not showing it in action.

Also that's an Autopilot crash, not FSD.

Re: Tesla's 2M car Autopilot recall is now under federal scrutiny

#78

Post by bangaladore »

FireBeyond wrote: post #74
bangaladore wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are misrepresenting the actual IIHS results. For example, the Model Y is one of five cars that achieved the highest rating in its size class, not one of 16. You are grouping their highest and second-highest tiers together. Additionally, the Model Y is by and far the cheapest vehicle in that category. So, yes. If you consider a car to be classified by size and price, I think it is a very reasonable way to…

> For example, the Model Y is one of five cars that achieved the highest rating in its size class, not one of 16. You are grouping their highest and second-highest tiers together. Who said I was talking about the Y? (I also specifically said that I was grouping them ("they're still in the top or top two safety levels"), because IIHS has "Top Safety Pick+", "Top Safety Pick" and "Others". Though I have been looking at…

The original comment about Tesla allegedly gaming the system by not deploying airbags when they should is unfounded based on available safety metrics. It's an unsubstantiated claim that derails the conversation from the main point.

Comparing the minor differences in airbag performance among a handful of cars is not particularly relevant to the overall argument, especially when considering the vast number of poorly performing vehicles on the market.

And, yes, I do believe that cost matters here. Cars exist in size and price classes. If you cannot comprehend that, that's fine. But it doesn't change the argument.

Re: Tesla's 2M car Autopilot recall is now under federal scrutiny

#79

Post by jeffbee »

bangaladore wrote: post #76
jeffbee wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you name such a vehicle? My personal car with lane keeping and TACC insists that you keep your hands on the wheel.

I might be mistaken about cars requiring no input, but isn't just steering sensing a problem? The car does not know if it is you or a weight on the steering wheel. Or if you are on your phone touching the wheel with your knee. According to the NHTSA, Tesla was forced to enable driver monitoring via a camera because sensing driver steering input was insufficient. So, without a doubt, 10s of millions of cars have "insu…

The NHTSA insisted that Tesla switch to camera monitoring because Tesla repeatedly monkeyed with the nag interval via OTA software pushes. All the other manufacturers, except Tesla, complied with NHTSA's 2017 rule on the issue.

Re: Tesla's 2M car Autopilot recall is now under federal scrutiny

#80

Post by FireBeyond »

bangaladore wrote: post #78
FireBeyond wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For example, the Model Y is one of five cars that achieved the highest rating in its size class, not one of 16. You are grouping their highest and second-highest tiers together. Who said I was talking about the Y? (I also specifically said that I was grouping them ("they're still in the top or top two safety levels"), because IIHS has "Top Safety Pick+", "Top Safety Pick" and "Others". Though I have been looking at…

The original comment about Tesla allegedly gaming the system by not deploying airbags when they should is unfounded based on available safety metrics. It's an unsubstantiated claim that derails the conversation from the main point. Comparing the minor differences in airbag performance among a handful of cars is not particularly relevant to the overall argument, especially when considering the vast number of poorly pe…

> The original comment about Tesla allegedly gaming the system by not deploying airbags when they should is unfounded based on available safety metrics. It's an unsubstantiated claim that derails the conversation from the main point.

If you read my other comments in this thread, I partially agree with you. But I also think Tesla's "we don't count it as an FSD/AP incident if airbags weren't deployed" is "convenient", given that "advanced airbags" (which are a spec) use a whole variety of means to determine deployment which don't correlate to the severity of the incident, i.e.:

depending on other parameters, you can collide with someone at 20-30mph, but have no airbag deployment, because the algorithm decides that passenger restraint is sufficient. Great. Except if a car operating in FSD/AP mode causes a 20-30mph collision with something else, that's a notable incident. Well, most people would think so. Tesla explicitly says this is NOT an incident when reporting FSD/AP stats. Huh.

> And, yes, I do believe that cost matters here. Cars exist in size and price classes. If you cannot comprehend that, that's fine. But it doesn't change the argument.

I can comprehend that just fine. But it's not a factor for IIHS, which is what -you- brought into the argument when you said "IIHS says it's best in class for safety".

1. It doesn't.

2. You can't then say "oh, well, if you consider cost as well, then clearly it must be best in class", which is a conclusion that cannot inherently be drawn from the previous.

It -may- be best in class "overall", not for safety alone, but that's got nothing to do with what you said. The flow of that argument was:

You: It's best in class.

Me: Not demonstrably, it's one of several cars that are in the top category for that class.

You: Well, if you factor in price, too, it's "clearly" best in class.

Everyone likes paying less money, sure. But you're already talking about the luxury segment, where just maaaaybe people are conscious of more factors than price when considering even this broader definition of best in class.

Post reply on HN