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Senate passes reauthorization of key US surveillance program after midnight

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Re: Senate passes reauthorization of key US surveillance program after midnight

#71

Post by Gud »

stanford_labrat wrote: post #52
hammock wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed that’s interesting. Really makes you think about all these crackpots talking about a uniparty, deep state vs the people, etc

Because in reality the two party system is not accurate. It’s rich versus poor, those with power versus those without. Nobility versus peasants. That’s just how it works.

That's how it works in the USA, not necessarily how it works. Other forms of governing exists.

A big step forward for the USA would be a vast reduction of federal power over the states.

Re: Senate passes reauthorization of key US surveillance program after midnight

#72

Post by unethical_ban »

hammock wrote: post #36
jedberg wrote: post #32

What's most interesting is that this wasn't on party lines. The yes/no mix is very mixed party-wise. https://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_votes/vote1...

Agreed that’s interesting. Really makes you think about all these crackpots talking about a uniparty, deep state vs the people, etc

Really makes you think about whether there are some things that can still transcend partisan showmanship, like national security.

I still am a believer in digital freedom, I'm old enough to have seen the changes in the Internet, and it is a much more malevolent and fucked up force than it was even 15 years ago. Maybe, just maybe, the government needs the power to spy on international targets with oversight.

Re: Senate passes reauthorization of key US surveillance program after midnight

#73

Post by verdverm »

geuis wrote: post #45
verdverm wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you aware the alternative is less oversight? FISA protects Americans https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Intelligence_Surveilla...

I obviously can't guess your age, but I'm gonna wager you weren't around much prior to 9/11. The world was getting on quite well without massive surveillance creep, and none of the stuff FISA has done in the last 23 years would have stopped it. The authorities already had all the info they needed back then and just didn't act on it.

I watched 9/11 live from my dorm

Maybe don't jump to biases so fast, people within all age groups have different opinions about the same topics.

HN is very opinionated on surveillance, as the comments on this story reinforce

Re: Senate passes reauthorization of key US surveillance program after midnight

#74

Post by soraminazuki »

twoodfin wrote: post #64
mise_en_place wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The alternative is requiring a warrant, which means following the Constitution. Due process doesn’t disappear because you want it to. Even if someone is supposedly a terrorist or criminal.

If you’re hoping the Supreme Court, and in particular this Supreme Court, is going to agree that the Constitution requires the executive branch get a warrant before spying on cross-border communication with a non-citizen, you’re going to be disappointed. FISA is Congress exercising the only authority it has here, which is oversight & regulation. You could argue FISA should be stricter, but it can’t extend the Constit…

It's baffling to many people how FISA is even a thing. To a layperson, the Fourth Amendment leaves no room for a rubber stamp court authorizing mass surveillance. And no one except politicians and bureaucrats are buying the argument that this is somehow targeted surveillance.

Also, free nations should have higher standards than "Not a citizen? Too bad, anything goes."

Re: Senate passes reauthorization of key US surveillance program after midnight

#75

Post by rightbyte »

njarboe wrote: post #12

Here is a link to how the senators voted[1]. [1] https://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_votes/vote1... Unfortunately both my senators voted for it. I did call their offices Thursday to no avail.

So 55 needed for passing and 60 voted for. Closer then I thought it would be.

Re: Senate passes reauthorization of key US surveillance program after midnight

#76

Post by [deleted] »

serf wrote: post #60
verdverm wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you aware the alternative is less oversight? FISA protects Americans https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Intelligence_Surveilla...

I can't down vote you harder. FISA hurts Americans by short circuiting any kind of protections citizens once had for due process. We were fine before, and arguably it would've done little to change the events that caused the reaction that allowed it to be established in the first place.

[deleted]

Re: Senate passes reauthorization of key US surveillance program after midnight

#77

Post by soraminazuki »

borkt wrote: post #59
geuis wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I obviously can't guess your age, but I'm gonna wager you weren't around much prior to 9/11. The world was getting on quite well without massive surveillance creep, and none of the stuff FISA has done in the last 23 years would have stopped it. The authorities already had all the info they needed back then and just didn't act on it.

FISA has been in existence since 1978. It did not prevent 9/11, so honestly your comment undersells how worthless the program has been in light of the constitutional freedoms we willingly cede in reauthorizing it. The fact is though it remains law and the officials we elected feel the value is worth it. I hope its being done solely based on the benefits it provides us as a whole and is not being used for self-serving…

Even humanitarian groups such as the UNICEF were targets, there's no doubt now what the program is about

Re: Senate passes reauthorization of key US surveillance program after midnight

#78

Post by throwaway35777 »

bwanab wrote: post #25
njarboe wrote: post #12

Here is a link to how the senators voted[1]. [1] https://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_votes/vote1... Unfortunately both my senators voted for it. I did call their offices Thursday to no avail.

It's the first time I can ever remember on a contested vote where both the two Democratic Senators from my current bluer than blue state voted the same (nay) as the two Republican Senators from my former redder than red state. Strange bedfellows in interesting times.

{Montana, North Dakota} --> {Washington}?

Re: Senate passes reauthorization of key US surveillance program after midnight

#79

Post by Retric »

unethical_ban wrote: post #70
borkt wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FISA has been in existence since 1978. It did not prevent 9/11, so honestly your comment undersells how worthless the program has been in light of the constitutional freedoms we willingly cede in reauthorizing it. The fact is though it remains law and the officials we elected feel the value is worth it. I hope its being done solely based on the benefits it provides us as a whole and is not being used for self-serving…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Intelligence_Surveilla... 2008.

Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (FISA)

https://bja.ojp.gov/program/it/privacy-civil-liberties/autho...

Re: Senate passes reauthorization of key US surveillance program after midnight

#80

Post by karaterobot »

njarboe wrote: post #12

Here is a link to how the senators voted[1]. [1] https://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_votes/vote1... Unfortunately both my senators voted for it. I did call their offices Thursday to no avail.

People generally vote for the incumbent if they happen to claim the same party affiliation. They complain for 4-6 years, then when it comes to what box they tick on the ballot, all of that is out the window. The lure of an incumbent is that they might have acquired enough markers and enough seats on various committees to help the state, when it often seems the reality is that they've probably just acquired more lobbyist friends and more incentive to stay in office no matter what. Sure, they may be corrupt and incompetent, but they've got so much influence!
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