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End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

theguardian.com

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Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#71

Post by keiferski »

dragonwriter wrote: post #52
keiferski wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that actually true from a transportation physics perspective? I can’t imagine that a curved tram/train/etc. would be able to accelerate and decelerate as efficiently as one on a straight path.

Yeah, but it wouldn't have as far to go, since the maximum distance between any two stations is half as far on a ring city of circumference d as on a linear city of length d , and you can get even shorter if you cut across the ring. To get the same area, you'd have to have slightly more center-line circumference on a ring city as linear distance on a line, but even so your transit distances are going to be shorter on…

Right but if the idea is to maximize the open space / city size while maintaining a fast transit system, then the line makes sense to me.

I guess I don’t really understand the criticism, most of which seems to be “you should just build something that isn’t the thing you want to build.” There is plenty of aesthetic merit to the linear city idea on its own.

To use an example of a place that already exists: the city Łódź in Poland is situated along a single linear 4-5km street. Other neighborhoods branch off from it, but essentially the main road is the city’s layout. I really like it and think it’s a lot more interesting than it would be as a circle, even if the transit is theoretically not as optimal. There is something very aesthetically appealing about it.

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#72

Post by onethought »

evrimoztamur wrote: post #59
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Desert cities hitting 50+ °C air temperature at midday which means air conditioning everywhere Couldn't that element be self-sufficient on solar?

Solar in desert has a lot of issues including wind and sand coverage. Although the deserts of the region may seem like unchanging environments, the ecosystem and weather is hostile to solar installations (amongst other things). Moreover, solar panels become less efficient at higher sustained temperatures, which increases land and infrastructure maintenance costs. https://eepower.com/industry-articles/is-desert-based-…

Some kind of cool idea that desalinates/heats water and cools solar panels at the same time.

The sand bit feels like a filter problem.

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#73

Post by dragonwriter »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #50
namaria wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one "signs off" on an absolute monarch's design.

> No one "signs off" on an absolute monarch's design Nitpick, but MBS isn't the sovereign. His father is. Given MBS isn't acting as regent, he's actually--in the most technical way--a tyrant: "the tyrant was Very Obviously but not formally in charge, because he ruled extra-constitutonally, rather than abolishing the constitution. This is what seperates tyranny, a form of extra-constitutional one man rule, from monarc…

MBS is formally in charge from the perspective of anyone but the King since being appointed PM (a title normally held by the monarch), and arguably even before that as First Deputy Prime Minister.

His power is not (as far as anyone not privy to the private preferences of King Salman can say) extraconstitutional, since it flows directly from royal decree giving him the position and authority he holds, and Saudi Arabia is an absolute monarchy where any delegation of authority the King makes is, ipso facto, constitutional.

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#74

Post by satvikpendem »

Simon_ORourke wrote: post #61
delta_p_delta_x wrote: post #43

The only thing the Gulf states have going for them is oil money and a good hub location on the Europe–Southeast Asia airline routes. Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Riyadh, Bahrain, Qatar, they all remind me of that quote from King of the Hill—they are monuments to man's arrogance. Desert cities hitting 50+ °C air temperature at midday which means air conditioning everywhere; vapid luxury in the form of expensive garish cars, shop…

> local chiefs who oppose stupid and unrealistic white elephant vanity projects are executed. Let's not gloss over the absolutely appalling respect many of these societies have for human dignity. Public executions and flogging, discrimination and imprisonment based solely on gender, absolutely zero regard for freedom of conscience when it comes to matters of religion. There's only so much you can get away with by say…

Not to mention literal modern day slavery where they bring in South Asians on the promise of better pay, then take away their passports and pay them pennies.

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#75

Post by TylerE »

hgomersall wrote: post #49
TylerE wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s literal anti-semetism in the Old Testament, which predates anything that can vaguely be called Europe.

I'm puzzled by this... Isn't the old testament essentially the Torah? (This is an honest question, in case that needs clarifying)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses

“ According to the Book of Exodus, Moses was born in a time when his people, the Israelites, an enslaved minority, were increasing in population and, as a result, the Egyptian Pharaoh worried that they might ally themselves with Egypt's enemies.[7] Moses' Hebrew mother, Jochebed, secretly hid him when Pharaoh ordered all newborn Hebrew boys to be killed in order to reduce the population of the Israelites.”

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#76

Post by [deleted] »

Supermancho wrote: post #27
endoftheline wrote: post #12

I'm surprised not to see the article mention the previous report[1] about the three men who were sentenced to death, the killing of one, and the decades long prison sentences for others over their opposition to this project. Karmic justice requires this project to be crushed by the sand that these arrogant dictators tried to impose their steel dick over. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/may/03/un-rights-exp…

> I'm surprised not to see the article mention the previous report[1] about the three men who were sentenced to death, the killing of one, and the decades long prison sentences for others It's a small number of people, who are opposing known tyrants, foolishly. The ruling class can kill and enslave, at will. The indentured servitude imposed on thousands of immigrants who built and maintain it, is much more concerning…

[deleted]

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#77

Post by saberience »

dkdbejwi383 wrote: post #70
keiferski wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that actually true from a transportation physics perspective? I can’t imagine that a curved tram/train/etc. would be able to accelerate and decelerate as efficiently as one on a straight path.

Acceleration etc wouldn't really matter if I live at one end of the line and my friend lives at the opposite end. It would be an annoyingly long journey that stops at every single other station in the entire city. In a regular city that grows outwards, you'd expect there to be circumferential routes as well as cross-city routes connecting various points, making the travel time more bearable.

I sort of assume they would have express trains as well as local trains, a bit like the NY subway. I.e. one train which just goes direct to the other end with no stops at high speed.

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#78

Post by widforss »

hgomersall wrote: post #49
TylerE wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s literal anti-semetism in the Old Testament, which predates anything that can vaguely be called Europe.

I'm puzzled by this... Isn't the old testament essentially the Torah? (This is an honest question, in case that needs clarifying)

Yes? And it is basically a story about persecution of jews.

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#79

Post by keiferski »

dkdbejwi383 wrote: post #70
keiferski wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that actually true from a transportation physics perspective? I can’t imagine that a curved tram/train/etc. would be able to accelerate and decelerate as efficiently as one on a straight path.

Acceleration etc wouldn't really matter if I live at one end of the line and my friend lives at the opposite end. It would be an annoyingly long journey that stops at every single other station in the entire city. In a regular city that grows outwards, you'd expect there to be circumferential routes as well as cross-city routes connecting various points, making the travel time more bearable.

It would matter if an express train could accelerate fast enough to make the end-to-end trip quicker than a cross-city trip in a typical city.

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#80

Post by meindnoch »

gherkinnn wrote: post #19

The whole idea of a linear city is daft. A circle is way more efficient at getting around. The dimensions of the Line are, of course, silly as well.

A circle is still one-dimensional, so it's only a tiny bit less brain-damaged than a line.
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