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EU rejects Apple's changes: Company could be fined 10% of global turnover

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Re: EU rejects Apple's changes: Company could be fined 10% of global turnover

#71
post #41

[flagged]

If you don't want a third party app store, don't install one. TaDa ... Nothing changes for you. Now let the rest of the people, that want to use THEIR phone as THEY want, let them.

Well, thank you for "oversimplifying it" But, the existence of a 3rd party app store, with "zero cost" to developers apparently, would almost certainly force someone in need of an app for some purpose to use this app store.

If I have a tool, lets say I buy a 'doorbell' camera. Right now, the "app" must be curated and qualified and verified clear of defects, malware, etc by App store policy and review. (not that they are 100%, but it's a pretty decent process).

When a 'free app store' shows up, then this same doorbell camera company will just pop their app, which will become a much shittier version of what would have been available, into some shitty app store, and, not bother to make a better version.

What will happen, in practice, is that there will be some percentage of apps that become shittier and only available from the shitty 3rd party store, and not the curated (and not free) app store.

So, no, it won't be a simple matter of just "don't use that store", there will be more factors at play.

Re: EU rejects Apple's changes: Company could be fined 10% of global turnover

#72
post #70
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Apple halts their iPhone sales in the EU, they endanger their platform globally. Because suddenly a pretty large and important market would go 100% to Android. Also, Macs would become extinct pretty quickly in the EU.

I agree, but I'm just pointing out that this fine is outrageous, and, basically almost equal to total sales in the EU.

The fine initially would be up to 10% of the revenue. I don't see how that is outrageous if the violation of the law is there. The actual fine could be lower, but on the other side, the fine needs to be high enough that it can force the fined company to stop breaking the law.

Re: EU rejects Apple's changes: Company could be fined 10% of global turnover

#73
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EU has said they’re going to fast track the enforcement of these. Apple lawyers, simply, fucked up. They lost so much good will with developers over this, have lost any goodwill with negotiations with EU, and are now going to have to speedrun compliance. I’ve dealt with lawyers like this before in various company situations. They are sometimes really, really stupid. Not always, but it happened often enough to be…

I’ve worked on this very issue, and what happens is the lawyers lay out a menu of options and consequences of each. This was Cook’s call, and hubris is guiding him.

>This was Cook’s call, and hubris is guiding him.

It is obvious Tim Cook is doing what ever he can to protect their services revenue. And lack the intuition Steve jobs has.

Re: EU rejects Apple's changes: Company could be fined 10% of global turnover

#74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve worked on this very issue, and what happens is the lawyers lay out a menu of options and consequences of each. This was Cook’s call, and hubris is guiding him.

I am unsure about hubris, but I can totally see it as a "That does not align with our long-term strategy" and it getting rejected. Perhaps there was some "But we're apple! We are a luxury aspirational brand! We shouldn't have to lower ourselves to this" in the traditional reality-distortion-field of thinking they are somehow special or above the rules that everyone else has to deal with. I'll admit is kinda fund to i…

> I am unsure about hubris, but I can totally see it as a "That does not align with our long-term strategy" and it getting rejected.

It's pretty hubristic to see that that law does not align with their long-term strategy, and then choose noncompliance with the law.

Re: EU rejects Apple's changes: Company could be fined 10% of global turnover

#75
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did. Perplexity updates daily. Better than "googling" these days. At least I attributed it. Don't like the stats, find better ones, or contradicting ones.

I am not against the statistics, it's well known that the Android ecosystem has more malware than iOS. I was more faschinated by you using LLM as source. I hope I didn't sound condescending, I was asking out of curiosity. The way you attributed it wasn't properly done though, it's like me saying "According to Google, Android has X times more malware...".

Is there a "proper way" to attribute information on the internet? And, in a comment forum? I clearly stated the source as perplextity.ai.

In fact, perplexity includes actual sources (via links). I couuld have posted the 8 sources that perplexity.ai cited.. I did not want to take the time.

Perplexity does have a sharelink, so, if you are really curious, here is the search and results

https://www.perplexity.ai/search/What-percentage-of-VTOCreO8...

Re: EU rejects Apple's changes: Company could be fined 10% of global turnover

#76

what a clickbait site. There are no sources that say Apple will be fined anywhere close to that. The journalist has just read the maximum punishment of the crime... You can also go to jail for speeding

Of course there are no sources that say Apple will be fined close to that. That's because the title states that Apple could be fined close to that

"Could" is insanely sensationalist. Just beause HN got a boner against Apple's consumer-friendly ecosystem does not make it reasonable to think this will happen.

Re: EU rejects Apple's changes: Company could be fined 10% of global turnover

#77
post #11

Don't understand Apple here. This was a clear cut case of malicious compliance, what did they expect? That they just get away with it? Of course the EU would see the provocation and will take the opportunity. Yes, they might gain a couple years till this is settled, but they can't use the time to crush a competing app store in between, as there is currently none. I am sure I am dumb, but IMO the smart move would have…

This might sound like a dumb question - but why do lawmakers write such roundabout legislation in the first place? They could have passed a law that says “In the EU, app stores including Apple’s App Store on iOS will not be allowed to charge a fee greater than x% on developers.” And the whole thing would be solved. We can argue about what X should be, but then we wouldn’t have to jump through all these hoops.

Because they’re trying to solve a class of problems and targeting individual companies with draconian requirements isn’t procedural and on the surface is punitive with no regulatory or legal reason.

The regulation creates the context to specify something like this. Writing ad hoc rules for named entities without a law or regulation behind it isn’t how our system of governance works. You first have to have a framework to judge against, either in law or regulation. You then assess the compliance of each in scope entity and issue findings.

Btw the term “malicious compliance” isn’t really a thing. The right term is “willful noncompliance.” For this they need to prove intent to be a defensible finding, which they probably could. However it would be easier to just find them in non-compliance.

I would also note this is a back and forth. What surprises me is Apple went public with their plans rather than developing them directly with the regulators. Going public with their plan creates all sorts of problems for Apple.

This is surprising because Apple is a pretty sophisticated regulatory player. For all their devices they go through many regulatory processes and regimes. They have tons of experience dealing with regulators across many regions and regulatory domains, including these sorts of policies. This is a shocking lack of cooperative behavior that won’t work for Apple. Apple is flush with cash, but governments have unlimited resources and the ability for forcibly enforce their will. It’s usually smart money to invest in appeasing your regulators in private.

Re: EU rejects Apple's changes: Company could be fined 10% of global turnover

#78
post #11

Don't understand Apple here. This was a clear cut case of malicious compliance, what did they expect? That they just get away with it? Of course the EU would see the provocation and will take the opportunity. Yes, they might gain a couple years till this is settled, but they can't use the time to crush a competing app store in between, as there is currently none. I am sure I am dumb, but IMO the smart move would have…

They will go through the EU appeals court process for 8 to 10 years, while making billions. To finally agree to some fine with minor inflation corrections. From a financial management aspect makes total sense.

Re: EU rejects Apple's changes: Company could be fined 10% of global turnover

#79
post #11

Don't understand Apple here. This was a clear cut case of malicious compliance, what did they expect? That they just get away with it? Of course the EU would see the provocation and will take the opportunity. Yes, they might gain a couple years till this is settled, but they can't use the time to crush a competing app store in between, as there is currently none. I am sure I am dumb, but IMO the smart move would have…

Fwiw the term you want isn’t malicious compliance, which isn’t a real thing. It’s willful non-compliance. Willful non compliance is potentially a criminal offense and requires providing intent or conspiracy. It’s much more likely they’ll just be found non compliant.

Apples strategy here is baffling. They’re not unfamiliar with regulation and how to manage regulators. This is really not a good strategy they’re doing and it’ll make everything worse for them at every step. The fact they unveiled their plans publicly without a green light from the regulator means they’re doing some sort of weird game of chicken.

IMO they’re underestimating the motivation of the EU to try to break US tech megacorps grip to try to create a place that an EU tech megacorp might emerge. I don’t know that it’s a very sensible strategy as any EU megacorp will also be subject to onerous requirements, but will have to bootstrap in that regime. Also until the EU fixed its banking and investment structures, pay improves, and any number of other head winds abate, I wouldn’t expect attacking FB, Google, and Apple with regulatory burden will be meaningfully helpful to any tech company in the EU.

Re: EU rejects Apple's changes: Company could be fined 10% of global turnover

#80
post #2

wow, 38B could really impact them. Maybe they'll stop the malicious compliance scheme then

I wonder what lawyer at Apple thought that the EU would not investigate Apple's malicious compliance, or Apple has done this to see how far the EU will go. This isn't US legislation where you can find loopholes, EU legislation prohibits malicious compliance and not following "the spirit" of the law, the latter Apple has publicly admitted to doing.

> not following "the spirit" of the law, the latter Apple has publicly admitted to doing.

Mind sharing a source? I’d like to see how far the admission goes.

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