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EU Parliament commitee approves cash cap and ban on anonymous crypto payments

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Re: EU Parliament commitee approves cash cap and ban on anonymous crypto payments

#71

Post by lxgr »

miohtama wrote: post #55
lxgr wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a big fan of anonymous payments as a component of a resilient democracy, but to me, there's an amount cap where the tradeoff starts getting skewed from that to facilitating money laundering, tax evasion and other bad things. I can imagine dozens of good use cases for If there's real demand for it, I think we should come up with a technical solution that e.g. provides one-sided privacy like GNU Taler (taxation usu…

It’s important to remember that money-laundering is a secondary crime. There is always an underlying crime, and money laundering is just its effect. Thus, anti-money laundering do not solve or prevent any crime (crime has already happened). With over reaching AML regime there is a danger that it is used against political opposition, like it is already happening. AML is a very convinient tool for anyone who wants to a…

> Thus, anti-money laundering do not solve or prevent any crime (crime has already happened).

Sure, but "follow the money" can be an incredibly powerful tool for criminal investigations.

> With over reaching AML regime there is a danger that it is used against political opposition, like it is already happening.

That's a concern I definitely share. I think there needs to be a push for a privacy-preserving middle ground between the complete two-sided anonymity of cash and some cryptocurrencies on one side, and the data privacy nightmare that's traditional electronic payment methods.

Re: EU Parliament commitee approves cash cap and ban on anonymous crypto payments

#72

Post by lxgr »

b112 wrote: post #45
lxgr wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a big fan of anonymous payments as a component of a resilient democracy, but to me, there's an amount cap where the tradeoff starts getting skewed from that to facilitating money laundering, tax evasion and other bad things. I can imagine dozens of good use cases for If there's real demand for it, I think we should come up with a technical solution that e.g. provides one-sided privacy like GNU Taler (taxation usu…

The thing is, limits like this are never, ever raised. 40 years ago Canada got rid of the $1000 and $500 note. In all that time, the idea of bringing the $500 back has never been floated. Yet soon, $100 will be worth $20 back then. I already find myself using $100s all the time, I used to fill my car for $25 in the 80s, now it's $80. Groceries are the same, I used to buy $30 per week, now it's over $100. As time prog…

That's one problem, but the other is that big parts of our lives are moving online/digital, even in the physical world.

Getting gas at night in rural parts of the US without a credit or debit card is already practically impossible – there's nobody there to take your cash. Card-only restaurants, vending machines, shops etc. are already a reality in some countries as well.

I think we urgently need a semi-anonymous, cash-like alternative for low-value online and offline payments, because I feel like once we've lost the anonymity of cash completely, there's no way it'll be reintroduced in a digital equivalent.

The discussion around this seems largely poisoned though, with a lot of vocal crypto/libertarian takes on one side (often tangling the payment privacy aspect with monetary policy), and "nothing to hide, log everything, credit cards and ACH are perfection" on the other.

Re: EU Parliament commitee approves cash cap and ban on anonymous crypto payments

#73

Post by miohtama »

acdha wrote: post #70
miohtama wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s important to remember that money-laundering is a secondary crime. There is always an underlying crime, and money laundering is just its effect. Thus, anti-money laundering do not solve or prevent any crime (crime has already happened). With over reaching AML regime there is a danger that it is used against political opposition, like it is already happening. AML is a very convinient tool for anyone who wants to a…

> Thus, anti-money laundering do not solve or prevent any crime (crime has already happened). It prevents crimes as long as the people who would be committing them know it’s hard to cash out. As a simple example, phone theft was much worse in the United States a decade or so back because a teenager could grab a phone, wipe it, and get hundreds of USD. It plummeted once the stolen IMEI database went into effect becaus…

The question is: if the new regulations will make it harder to cash out, or is it very hard to cash out already. If it is the latter, the new regulations do not contribute to the solving new crimes. In this case, the new regulations are not needed and the lobbying behind them is not about preventing crime, but about the interest of industry stakeholders. Such stakeholders include software companies that sell anti-money laundering solutions.

Re: EU Parliament commitee approves cash cap and ban on anonymous crypto payments

#74

Post by literalAardvark »

friend_and_foe wrote: post #50
ktosobcy wrote: post #43

I'm curious about all the outraged comments - when was the last time you used cash and when was the last time the amount was above the limit? Or the butt hurt outrage is just on principle and the sheeply is already not giving a duck? ;-)

A few months ago I bought a car with cash I pulled out of my bank. It was well above that limit. Nothing nefarious, just a car. These laws aren't about limiting crime, or even about surveillance or tax compliance really. They're about ensuring that you cannot do business with peers and can only do it with corporations.

And exactly how is this limiting your ability to do business with peers more than pulling cash out of the bank did?

Log in to internet banking, ask the seller for their account, enter the number, press send.

It's even less effort than pulling cash, and only vaguely more easily traceable.

Re: EU Parliament commitee approves cash cap and ban on anonymous crypto payments

#75

Post by literalAardvark »

justaj wrote: post #61
lxgr wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I pay for my VPN subscription online, anonymously using crypto. Am I facilitating crime? No, and you'll continue to be able to do so under the new regulation unless I'm missing something.

Doesn't it say it right there in the first paragraph? > And anonymous payments in cryptocurrencies to wallets operated by providers (hosted wallets) will be prohibited even for minimum amounts without a threshold. Doesn't this mean that literally all anonymous crypto transactions would be banned?

It does, and the real surprise is only that it took so long.

The strictness of AML/KYC is half the reason why it's easier to use crypto than banking. They're removing the glitch.

Re: EU Parliament commitee approves cash cap and ban on anonymous crypto payments

#76

Post by literalAardvark »

Drakim wrote: post #18
louwrentius wrote: post #7

> Anonymous cash payments over €3,000 will be banned in commercial transactions. Cash payments over €10,000 will even be completely banned in business transactions. And anonymous payments in cryptocurrencies to wallets operated by providers (hosted wallets) will be prohibited even for minimum amounts without a threshold. For the regular person, there is no issue here. Cash is still fine, anonymous payments are possib…

One issue I know that drives many NSFW artists to crypto payments is that things like paypal won't service them.

Won't really be a problem, crypto payment providers are dime a dozen, and they just need to keep records.

Or you could ID and pay directly.

Re: EU Parliament commitee approves cash cap and ban on anonymous crypto payments

#77

Post by Habgdnv »

j_crick wrote: post #66
Habgdnv wrote: post #65

Sorry for the long post, but I've got to vent about something... Near my office, it's almost impossible to pay with a card for food within a 1km radius. It's either cash or nothing, even though there's no shortage of places to eat. And when you do find a shop that accepts cards, they often want you to spend at least 5 to 10 euros. So, forget about using your card for just a waffle. Speaking of, I found out my favorit…

> If authorities mistakenly place a distress or freeze First I wanted to write that good luck suing you government, and even if you win, getting your money in several years… Maybe… > personally paid by the government employee responsible … but then I continued to read, and I’m sorry but if you think any government would be willing to do that, you might be mistaken or even delusional. The sad truth is that as a layper…

I suggest this as a form of theoretical equilibrium, i know it won't happen.

The question is about fairness. You work for these money, did not steal them. If you steal, the court can decide to take them from you, but mistakes happen and you know that you have some X amount of money, go to the grocery store and boom-you have nothing. No court, no police, no judge. And then you must go to court and write tens of pages of proofs to get your own money, not my or their, YOUR OWN! I am starting to become a bit angry exactly because this happened to me. They saw the mistake, and unlocked the money in about 2 business days, but the block was put friday evening, so 2 business days was 5 real days for me.

I know the benefits of cards and things, i like how I don't have to count coins but there must be some balance.

Currently it's like the DMCA thing. I can right now just send youtube few DMCAs for few random videos I choose. If they even come to me and tell me that I am lying, i can tell - "sry, my bad, won't happen again for the next few weeks" and i'm fine. The difference is that this can have more real and immediate consequences. What if you're in another city and have no where to sleep except hotel, and suddenly you have no money for hotel. You have no money to get a ticket to go home. And no food? You may carry some cash of course - 20-30 euro? Most of the hotels are 50-60 euro (unless its a real hole). And then what?

This is not some joke torrent site where we play pirates vs Big Corps. This is real life. Last such example was in Canada where many protesters found out that their cards were frozen. I can't remember the exact time or what they protested against but i'm sure you also heard of that.

Re: EU Parliament commitee approves cash cap and ban on anonymous crypto payments

#78

Post by [deleted] »

literalAardvark wrote: post #74
friend_and_foe wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A few months ago I bought a car with cash I pulled out of my bank. It was well above that limit. Nothing nefarious, just a car. These laws aren't about limiting crime, or even about surveillance or tax compliance really. They're about ensuring that you cannot do business with peers and can only do it with corporations.

And exactly how is this limiting your ability to do business with peers more than pulling cash out of the bank did? Log in to internet banking, ask the seller for their account, enter the number, press send. It's even less effort than pulling cash, and only vaguely more easily traceable.

[deleted]

Re: EU Parliament commitee approves cash cap and ban on anonymous crypto payments

#79

Post by friend_and_foe »

literalAardvark wrote: post #74
friend_and_foe wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A few months ago I bought a car with cash I pulled out of my bank. It was well above that limit. Nothing nefarious, just a car. These laws aren't about limiting crime, or even about surveillance or tax compliance really. They're about ensuring that you cannot do business with peers and can only do it with corporations.

And exactly how is this limiting your ability to do business with peers more than pulling cash out of the bank did? Log in to internet banking, ask the seller for their account, enter the number, press send. It's even less effort than pulling cash, and only vaguely more easily traceable.

Because every single transaction, even ones with peers, involves a multinational intermediary payment processor. Besides cryptocurrencies, all digital payments, every single one of them, is doing business with a corporation.

Re: EU Parliament commitee approves cash cap and ban on anonymous crypto payments

#80

Post by j_crick »

Habgdnv wrote: post #77
j_crick wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If authorities mistakenly place a distress or freeze First I wanted to write that good luck suing you government, and even if you win, getting your money in several years… Maybe… > personally paid by the government employee responsible … but then I continued to read, and I’m sorry but if you think any government would be willing to do that, you might be mistaken or even delusional. The sad truth is that as a layper…

I suggest this as a form of theoretical equilibrium, i know it won't happen. The question is about fairness. You work for these money, did not steal them. If you steal, the court can decide to take them from you, but mistakes happen and you know that you have some X amount of money, go to the grocery store and boom-you have nothing. No court, no police, no judge. And then you must go to court and write tens of pages…

I sympathize with your point of view and kinda share it, and enjoy cash myself very much, but I'm afraid "fairness" doesn't really exist, therefore it's a bit pointless to call for it. The rules of "the game" are such and such, either you play by rules, or try to get more money to switch to more comfortable rules.

What I don't understand though is why are "they" doing it, tightening things up for laypeople. It's not like most people in Europe are rampant criminals and money launderers, or even rich. Real criminals use different multiple schemes too. Why does government there want more control, exactly? What they don't see yet, but want to see that bad? I don't get what's the point, but maybe I'm just not very bright.

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