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Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

learncodethehardway.org

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Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#71

Post by zedshaw »

czzarr wrote: post #32
zedshaw wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Damn straight, because I actually care about this stuff. I mean, for all the talk on here about "passion" y'all sure do hate it when people actually are passionate.

you could be talking about this stuff and be passionate about it without talking about your books. I understand why you do though.

But, I'm passionate about my books. There's nothing wrong with being proud of the things you do. Thinking that you have to never tout yourself is just a form of self-loathing really.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#72

Post by j_baker »

You see, I'm proud to say I am the proto-enabler of the meme that everyone can learn to code (not Codecademy, or however you spell it).

I don't mean to disparage the good things Zed has done in helping new people learn to code, but am I the only one who is a bit put off with the narcissism here? I mean, Zed is hardly the first person to encourage non-programmers to program, or to write a book to teach non-programmers to program.

Regardless, I don't think Zed's point is mutually exclusive to Jeff's. It sounds to me as though Zed is saying "Everyone can learn to program", while Jeff is saying "Yes, but that doesn't mean that everyone should learn to program". I think these two ideas can coexist.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#73

Post by zedshaw »

stefanve wrote: post #37

It is funny to see how different people interpreted the original post. For me it was about coding being a craft and not a necessary skill like arithmetics, reading or a secondary languages. (This is true not only for coding but for nearly every craft there is.) So I think it was more a post against the "Every one should learn to code, for a better world" movement (if there is such a thing) than a keep on doing what y…

Craft requires skill and the two are deeply intertwined. In opinion, if you think that programming is some mystical "craft" that can't be taught, then you simply just don't know enough about it.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#74

Post by rokhayakebe »

jwingy wrote: post #50

The only thing all these counterpoint blog posts are proving is that while programming may or may not be important for everyone to learn in the future, being able to hold and understand cogent arguments most certainly is. I've read at least two blog posts today making counter arguments to points the op wasn't even making (op being Jeff). I have a feeling a big part of it is the blogger proclivity to make link bait he…

>being able to hold .... points the op wasn't even making (op being Jeff).

It seems you argue they should refute Jeff's arguments using logic. But how could they when Mr Atwood did not use logic in the first place to support his opinion; I cannot find any of it in his arguments and I doubt you can. He used rhetoric to appeal to people's mind, and every one else who is writing is doing the same thing.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#75

Post by B-Con »

cletus wrote: post #41

Great post. I have an awful lot of respect for Zed Shaw and what he's done (and, no, not for "Rails is a Ghetto" but for his directed learning programming books, which IMHO are probably the best approach for newcomers). I'm disappointed that Jeff has taken what is essentially an elitist and exclusionary view. Programming is not a zero sum game. Every new programmer isn't a threat to your livelihood and your existence…

This is a terrible post. He wildly exaggerates Jeff's statements and completely misses the point of it, which was not in any way "no one should learn to program", but rather "don't learn specialized skill sets you don't need". Jeff's point focused on whether programming was the best path to solving a problem for most people, and whether they would actually gain anything from it. His main argument was that programming was just a tool for problem solving, and it didn't solve problems that most people would need to. Rather than do a half-baked job of writing some code, people should take a different, more effective route.

I don't necessarily agree with that, but that's what he said. And this post completely misses the point and makes Jeff's post out to be something it was clearly not meant to be.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#76

Post by sasha-dv »

zedshaw wrote: post #65
sasha-dv wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hypocrisy? Aren't you selling some ebooks and Jeff's post is kinda bad for your business?

You confuse self-interest with hypocrisy. I am definitely self-interested and openly admit it, but I try not to be a hypocrite. For example, I think people should spend their lives learning new things. After I write a few more comments on HN, I'm going to grab my guitar and go learn a new scale. :-)

So, your motive for attack on Jeff is self-interest?

edit: an elaboration

I'm trying to figure out what exactly Jeff wrote that you hate so much. You don't even consider his arguments, you just have "a guess about Jeff, and a general message about other people who feel the same way."

Jeff wouldn't write something like this:

"Don't listen to the hipsters who claim that coding is as vital as reading, and who claim that for the first time in the history you can learn to code, because now we have an online JavaScript course that we call "Code Year" or something like that.

But that is what I've got from his post. He's not against people learning to code, he's against making it into something that it simply isn't - a vital life skill.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#77

Post by prayag »

zedshaw wrote: post #57
stiff wrote: post #28

While the "Don't Become Anything" thing is valuable (after all it's a thousands of years old insight that can be found in Buddhism for example), the article looks pretty much like a straw man to me. The original post was arguing that "coding" isn't an essential life skill in the way for example reading is and that massive amounts of new coders might not be that good for the world. How is this refuted here in any way?…

I'm not refuting his statement that programming is or is not a life skill. My opinion on the matter is demonstrated in my work. I'm refuting his statement that other people should not become programmers, and that only a few chosen few should. Even though he doesn't say those very words, that's what he's saying. The resentment comes from me talking to many programmers who say the same thing. Consider it a guess about…

>I'm refuting his statement that other people should not become programmers, and that only a few chosen few should.

But Atwood didn't say that. All he said was that it's a trade like Plumbing and not a life skill like being able to read.

>The resentment comes from me talking to many programmers who say the same thing.

But programmers DON'T mostly say that. In fact, I had a very animated discussion with Randy Stross of New York Times at YCombinator where EVERY programmer around was arguing that programming has become an important life skill and should be taught in high school. Of course, this is anecdotal but even the recent articles refuting this on HN shows most programmers are for everyone learning programming.

I don't know you as well as other members of the community here but this article seems to be really harsh and doesn't even touch the argument that Atwood made in his article.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#78

Post by B-Con »

zedshaw wrote: post #57
stiff wrote: post #28

While the "Don't Become Anything" thing is valuable (after all it's a thousands of years old insight that can be found in Buddhism for example), the article looks pretty much like a straw man to me. The original post was arguing that "coding" isn't an essential life skill in the way for example reading is and that massive amounts of new coders might not be that good for the world. How is this refuted here in any way?…

I'm not refuting his statement that programming is or is not a life skill. My opinion on the matter is demonstrated in my work. I'm refuting his statement that other people should not become programmers, and that only a few chosen few should. Even though he doesn't say those very words, that's what he's saying. The resentment comes from me talking to many programmers who say the same thing. Consider it a guess about…

> Even though he doesn't say those very words, that's what he's saying.

Partially yes, partially no, and for different reasons than claimed in this article. He does argue that fewer people should pursue programming, yes, but it's because they would be more effective elsewhere. His thesis is that people decide that the solution is for them to write code before they know what the problem is, and that some people make careers that follow that trail of thought. From a purely efficient viewpoint, a work force is more effective when there are fewer people mis-fit into it.

A guess about his motivations? So basically, this was a strawman to vent frustration onto?

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#79

Post by stiff »

zedshaw wrote: post #57
stiff wrote: post #28

While the "Don't Become Anything" thing is valuable (after all it's a thousands of years old insight that can be found in Buddhism for example), the article looks pretty much like a straw man to me. The original post was arguing that "coding" isn't an essential life skill in the way for example reading is and that massive amounts of new coders might not be that good for the world. How is this refuted here in any way?…

I'm not refuting his statement that programming is or is not a life skill. My opinion on the matter is demonstrated in my work. I'm refuting his statement that other people should not become programmers, and that only a few chosen few should. Even though he doesn't say those very words, that's what he's saying. The resentment comes from me talking to many programmers who say the same thing. Consider it a guess about…

He didn't state that people should not become programmers, he stated that people who do not intend to become programmers wouldn't benefit much more from a "coding" course than from a plumbing course, and could instead for example use some knowledge of how to find or build a solutions to their problems in an easy way without actually programming it. I do not necessarily agree with him everywhere, and I do greatly respect your work on "Learn X the hard way", but in my opinion you completely misrepresented what he has written and trivialize a point that actually is interesting and worth thinking about.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#80

Post by nkassis »

zedshaw wrote: post #64
jwingy wrote: post #50

The only thing all these counterpoint blog posts are proving is that while programming may or may not be important for everyone to learn in the future, being able to hold and understand cogent arguments most certainly is. I've read at least two blog posts today making counter arguments to points the op wasn't even making (op being Jeff). I have a feeling a big part of it is the blogger proclivity to make link bait he…

Maybe if I learned to code when I was younger I'd be better at logic arguments. But, sadly, I'm a human and not a computer so I tend to write like a human.

See this is the crux of what I thought this movement was about. Logical and Algorithmic thinking is what people should be getting from learning to code. This is a fundamental thing like critical thinking which schools have a really hard time making kids learn.

Plus I have to agree with you that today I wouldn't recommend my path to others trying to learn to program. It wouldn't make any sense.

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