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Please don't learn to code

codinghorror.com

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Re: Please don't learn to code

#71

Post by treenyc »

primecommenter wrote: post #31
jkahn wrote: post #23

I really, really disagree with Jeff Atwood here. Jeff has interpreted "learn to code" with "become a programmer". They're not the same thing. I don't think that is what this meme is about at all. Programming is logical thinking in practise. Programming is breaking a problem set down, thinking step by step through it, thinking of edge cases, and making it work. There is nothing wrong with Jeff's BASIC example, if that…

I don't understand the distinction you raise in the first paragraph. Coding is programming. Just because everyone can divide doesn't mean everyone is trying to be a mathematician, but I think everyone should (at least have the opportunity to) learn long division. Programming may not be the fourth "R", but maybe "Research" is!

Being a programmer is really really really fun the first few years. Kinda like playing video game. However, it eventually become something that is can be unhealthy. It really undermine other sensory input from the body. And primarily focus on the mind and finger interaction.

However, given the current state of the world, where many things are in one way or another controlled by software. It would be a good idea to have a skill related to coding, just to know if something is possible with code. And understand that it is not just magic under the hood.

Re: Please don't learn to code

#72

Post by MortenK »

mseebach wrote: post #46

That article is so full of strawmen, it's not even funny. The existence of individuals who wouldn't gain much from learning to code does not imply that no one will gain much from learning to code. I have a hunch that the vast majority of regular office workers has at least some portion of their work which can be trivially automated. Knowing how to code maybe allows these workers to go and code up a script - but even…

"The existence of individuals who wouldn't gain much from learning to code does not imply that no one will gain much from learning to code."

In the blog post, Atwood actually writes the following:

"Look, I love programming. I also believe programming is important … in the right context, for some people."

His actual argument is that the "everyone should learn programming" camp is wrong, it is not an opinion that no one can gain much from learning programming.

Re: Please don't learn to code

#73

Post by [deleted] »

sparknlaunch12 wrote: post #32
jkahn wrote: post #23

I really, really disagree with Jeff Atwood here. Jeff has interpreted "learn to code" with "become a programmer". They're not the same thing. I don't think that is what this meme is about at all. Programming is logical thinking in practise. Programming is breaking a problem set down, thinking step by step through it, thinking of edge cases, and making it work. There is nothing wrong with Jeff's BASIC example, if that…

Agree with both sides. The meme of everyone needs to learn code needs context. Should everyone have an understanding- probably. Should everyone build a public bit of code - probably not. Coding as a hobby is great but making strategic decisions still requires experts.

[deleted]

Re: Please don't learn to code

#74

Post by primecommenter »

marcusf wrote: post #63
primecommenter wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As opposed to a professional "coder"? (I also see "programmer" as a more distinguished title and I prefer it to "coder" (and even "software engineer"), but I don't understand any of these terms to have any generally-accepted definition; personally it is only a matter of taste.)

As opposed to vocational coding/programming/hacking. Seems like you're being facetious for the point of it?

I'm not trying to be facetious, just misunderstanding whatever point original commenter is making. "Most people don't what programming even looks like"? I don't think that is true because most people can search for code samples if needed.

Re: Please don't learn to code

#75

Post by seanhandley »

I think the root issue here is the perception that programming computers is some dark sorcery that requires years of secret incantations in dark rooms to master.

Coding is like being a baker, or a plumber, a mechanic or a school teacher. It's a useful job in society and no more or less laudable than anything else.

Anyone can love their job - and they ought to. If they do, it doesn't mean everyone should feel the same.

I say, better to affirm how ordinary coding is, rather than how extra-ordinary.

Re: Please don't learn to code

#76

Post by mseebach »

MortenK wrote: post #58
mseebach wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we're decreasing our children's chance of success, if we don't teach them cooking? Yes. Knowing cooking is paramount to feeding yourself and your family cheap, healthy meals.

Yes of course. But do you need to teach kids cooking from first grade until they start college, on the same level as math, reading and writing?

I don't care about the schedule on which any of those things are taught, just that they are taught.

Re: Please don't learn to code

#77

Post by jiggy2011 »

Whilst I agree to the extent that I would dread the monstrosities brought to birth by a huge programming populace, I can't agree with the overall article.

I think the comparison with plumbing is apt, but not in the way he intends. Let's say I turn on my tap and no water comes out, now I know nothing about plumbing but at least I know that the water comes to the tap through pipes so perhaps one is blocked or leaking?

By the same token if my car engine won't start then I can hazard a guess that it's perhaps a failure in the ignition system or the starter motor. I can also reason that the engine works by combustion of fuel, so it is logical that if the fuel tank is empty I won't get very far.

Contrast this with computers, the average person has literally no conceptual model whatsoever of what is going on beyond the fact that they require electrical power.

Of course people learn the buzzwords from the media to make it sort of sound like they know what they are talking about. I remember years ago people bragging about their "64 bit" console despite not having the slightest clue about what a bit was or why it should matter.

This makes it easier for people to buy media scare stories about "hackers" etc as well as not really understanding what it means to protect themselves online (beyond installing some AV software and praying).

It might also make life a little easier for people who are not technical to specify software requirements. For example many times I've been given a spec like "if X happens then do Y", of course X is never one thing, it is a combination of a large number of sub conditions that are dependent on various external variables etc.

When you try and get somebody to explain in detail all of these subconditions to you so that you can make the software correct people will often take you for being overly pedantic because they understand intuitively what they mean by X and can't quite get the fact that the computer doesn't.

Re: Please don't learn to code

#79

Post by devb »

jkahn wrote: post #26
shin_lao wrote: post #14

I don't like this post and what it implies. If tomorrow you want to learn to cook, how would you feel if a master chef told you "No, don't. You'll never be as good as me. If you're hungry, come to my restaurant instead". I think there's nothing wrong with learning a new skill, whoever you are, whatever you do. Learning new skills is what makes us human.

This is a great example. My brother in law is a chef. I asked for his scone recipe, and he said to throw in some sugar, flour and milk (or something like that, I'm not a chef). Mix it until it looks right. That's expertise. I'm a lousy cook - but I can cook food if I follow instructions that have accurate measurements. That doesn't mean I shouldn't learn to cook.

You're not a lousy cook, you're just not used to the process. All it is is following instructions with precise measurements, and then doing it over and over again with different instruction sets until you start to recognize patterns and you find yourself having to look at the instructions less and less. That's 99% of cooking.

Re: Please don't learn to code

#80

Post by jiggy2011 »

YmMot wrote: post #68

This largely misses the point. I agree that it's not "essential" and not everyone should do it, but it's still more valuable than I think Attwood gives credit for. I'm perhaps in a unique position to comment, having recently taught my girlfriend to program. So I can talk about how that played out. My girlfriend understands menus, she knows about links, she can install software, she can use word, she can type away lik…

Interesting, I've always though that at a conceptual level computers are not especially complicated machines (for example a turing machine) and most reasonably intelligent people shouldn't have any problem understanding them.

It's also interesting that you mention the holistic approach because this is exactly how many people view computers, in the same way they might view a mechanical device. I have seen people reason "If a reboot doesn't fix it , maybe 2 or 3 reboots in quick succession will".

It's also scary how many professional IT people seem to have a cargo cult understanding of computers. I've seen people do all kinds of crazy incantations , for example troubleshooting a network problem by re-installing OS software on multiple workstations and trying different combinations of firewall / AV and network driver software when in fact 5 minutes of methodical probing with wireshark would have made the issue obvious.

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