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ShotSpotter: listening in on the neighborhood

computer.rip

71–80 of 443 posts

Re: ShotSpotter: listening in on the neighborhood

#71
Hello all, occasionally I write what I consider "Albuquerque content" and I do not expect it to become broadly popular. This article is something I put together very quickly and it probably assumes a certain degree of familiarity with the political context around policing in Albuquerque (which either side will tell you is very contentious) and, more broadly, policing and civil justice. Even without the currently evolving bribery scandal, the level of public trust in APD (and even the city council's confidence in APD) is very low. APD's transparency and accountability, or lack thereof, has been a common locus of the debate. On the other hand, another major issue has been APD's chronic understaffing, and APD contends that ShotSpotter and other elements of their real-time program help to close the gap that results from their limited personnel. With gun crime as one of the foremost issues in the city, whether you view APD positively or negatively, ShotSpotter is a big part of the discussion right now.

Historically, APD's use of pervasive surveillance technology has been a flashpoint in the debate. APD has live access to perhaps 3-4 thousand cameras across the city (they aren't very transparent about this and it depends on how far along the APS integration project is), they have used facial recognition against driver's license photos and other sources since 2014, they have installed ALPR throughout the city and recently expanded retention to one year, etc. This is all fed into the Real-Time Crime Center, which uses a data fusion product from a vendor called Genetec to provide sort of a futuristic point-and-click data system that combines ShotSpotter detections with video feeds with service call records etc. to produce sort of a dossier on any given person or location.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of things going on in city politics, especially with regard to crime and policing, and so the topic of surveillance has mostly fallen out of public attention.

Still, APD's refusal to say in any detail what parts of the city were covered by ShotSpotter has been one of the big ongoing frustrations, particularly among those who favor police reform. I mostly wrote this article to highlight that there is finally information on the matter available. The concerns about how distribution of sensors and, more broadly, use of surveillance technology impacts civil rights and quality of life in the city are mentioned mainly as an aside and I do not attempt to articulate the pros and cons. That would require a rather lengthy piece as the topic is complex, and currently the greater part of the controversy isn't even about the wisdom of deploying ShotSpotter, but rather over whether or not ShotSpotter even works (and, consequently, whether or not it's simply a waste of city money, at a rate of around $5 million).

Re: ShotSpotter: listening in on the neighborhood

#72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> more gun crime equaling more surveillance But if you're not listening for the guns then you're not going to find the crime that does happen, will you? It's either saying "we don't care about it because it's less frequent" (which is stupid—you still build a fire station in places where buildings burn down less frequently) or "it's easier to keep ourselves busy when we fish in a barrel".

If you were to design a system to spot a certain kind of crime in real time, would you place it in zones historically more plagued by that kind of crime or in zones that experienced it scarcely? It's hard to buy into the rhetoric of "it's only fair if you monitor the crime equally" if you have already independently sampled it for decades and by now know the zones where it's much likely to happen. Would you patrol a d…

> would you place it in zones historically more plagued by that kind of crime

You mean these zones? https://whitecollarcrime.zone/

Re: ShotSpotter: listening in on the neighborhood

#73
post #8
post #7

> It's not perfect, but the distance from your house to a ShotSpotter sensor correlates fairly well with your household income. The wealthier you are, the less surveilled you are. To give ABQ police the benefit of the doubt, that pattern could also be compatible with more gun crime equaling more surveillance. It would be nice to have enough gun crime and sensor location data to see how true that is. When the sensors…

It sounds like shotspotters are likely to be near where shots are; and that the wealthier you are the more likely you’d NOT want to be where the shots are.

Putting surveillance for gun crime in areas with the highest rates of gun crime is obviously what’s happening. I think the author and some commenters are nervous about claims that gun crime is inversely correlated with neighborhood wealth, which creates some of these strange accusations that some other bias is at play.

If you pull up a map of crime in most cities the inverse correlation with home prices is obvious. If nothing else, high crime rates rapidly crush property values as everyone wants to leave those areas.

Re: ShotSpotter: listening in on the neighborhood

#74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> more gun crime equaling more surveillance But if you're not listening for the guns then you're not going to find the crime that does happen, will you? It's either saying "we don't care about it because it's less frequent" (which is stupid—you still build a fire station in places where buildings burn down less frequently) or "it's easier to keep ourselves busy when we fish in a barrel".

If you were to design a system to spot a certain kind of crime in real time, would you place it in zones historically more plagued by that kind of crime or in zones that experienced it scarcely? It's hard to buy into the rhetoric of "it's only fair if you monitor the crime equally" if you have already independently sampled it for decades and by now know the zones where it's much likely to happen. Would you patrol a d…

The problem is Bayesian priors look an awful lot like racism to the unaided eye, enough so that it's really hard to justify them. Or maybe it's racism masquerading as a Bayesian prior. I don't see how to know for sure either way.

Re: ShotSpotter: listening in on the neighborhood

#75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Their statement about observed crime was an historical claim (as in: "historically there's been a lot of ...").

his point was that he thinks low income areas are being targeted with a higher police presence. That is so wrong it’s hard to believe oc has ever been to a city in the us. I actually doubt he has for any serious amount of time. High tax areas are covered with police in US cities at a rate far above poor inner city areas.

Re: ShotSpotter: listening in on the neighborhood

#76
>Many assumed that ShotSpotter coverage was concentrated in disadvantaged parts of the city, an unsurprising outcome but one that could contribute to systemic overpolicing.

The author presents this as a negative but it is obviously a good thing. If there was an increase in gunfire in my neighbourhood I would hope that police increases their presence, lest the "disadvantages" begin to accumulate.

Re: ShotSpotter: listening in on the neighborhood

#77
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Big cities are pretty safe. For instance you more likely to be a victim of a crime in rural northern Wisconsin, like Barron County, than you are in Milwaukee. Don't let your narrative be shaped by stats that aren't proportional.

[deleted]

Re: ShotSpotter: listening in on the neighborhood

#78
post #7

> It's not perfect, but the distance from your house to a ShotSpotter sensor correlates fairly well with your household income. The wealthier you are, the less surveilled you are. To give ABQ police the benefit of the doubt, that pattern could also be compatible with more gun crime equaling more surveillance. It would be nice to have enough gun crime and sensor location data to see how true that is. When the sensors…

> It would be nice to have enough gun crime and sensor location data to see how true that is.

The main thread of the article is that ShotSpotter operate without scrutiny. The problematic aspects of their deployment are the false positives...

> APD received about 14,000 ShotSpotter reports last year. The accuracy of these reports, in terms of their correctly identifying gunfire, is contested. SoundThinking claims impressive statistics, but has actively resisted independent evaluation. A Chicago report found that only 11.3% of ShotSpotter reports could be confirmed as gunfire.

.. and false charges

> This ought to give us pause, as should the fact that ShotSpotter has been compellingly demonstrated to manipulate their "interpretation" of evidence to fit a prosecutor's narrative---even when ShotSpotter's original analysis contradicted it.

Linked article: https://www.vice.com/en/article/qj8xbq/police-are-telling-sh...

.. and as highlighted in another comment (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39577403), cops shooting kids playing with fireworks

https://chicago.suntimes.com/crime/2024/02/27/chicago-police...

Re: ShotSpotter: listening in on the neighborhood

#80

It's used the way police use any technology: to over-police the poor and non-white communities. https://www.cnn.com/2024/02/24/us/shotspotter-cities-choose-...

How is it "overpolicing" if those communities truly experience more gun violence than others?
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