WhatsApp forces Pegasus spyware maker to share its secret code • Hacker News Board

Re: WhatsApp forces Pegasus spyware maker to share its secret code

#71

Post by Andrex » Sat, Mar 02, 2024, 2:51 AM UTC

lmm wrote: post #64

jevoten wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is "Because the NSO group handles dollars" related to "the court could order any assets the US can get their hands on seized"? Presumably, if they were getting paid in bars of gold, the US could seize those too, if they could get their hands on them, no? On the other hand, if they were paid in US dollars, but in cash, that wouldn't establish jurisdiction, nor could it be seized, if the transfer happened outside U…

The overwhelming majority of dollars are not physical cash, and the overwhelming majority of dollar transactions by volume happen in a fashion which New York claims jurisdiction over (and, ultimately, has a big army that will back them on, which is what really matters in international law), even when neither party has any obvious connection to the US. Even for physical cash, they might claim jurisdiction. Dollars are…

> Even for physical cash, they might claim jurisdiction. Dollars are sometimes best understood as a particularly degenerate form of US government bonds.

Never thought about it that way, well said.

Re: WhatsApp forces Pegasus spyware maker to share its secret code

#72

Post by rangestransform » Sat, Mar 02, 2024, 2:54 AM UTC

bluGill wrote: post #59

SturgeonsLaw wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope so, the fact that attackers can hide behind international borders is an eternal thorn in the side of us blue teamers. Anyone who commits a crime in another country should be subject to that country seeking legal redress.

That is typically the case. If you commit a crime and flee to a different country, where you go will arrest you and turn you over to the country that you did the crime in. there are many treaties on this. It gets complex, some countries will not turn criminals over if the death pentalty is would be used for example. However in general if you commit a crime you can't flee to a different country. countries like north K…

If an extradition treaty would mean recognizing the judgments of Russian kangaroo courts in the US, I’d rather not

Re: WhatsApp forces Pegasus spyware maker to share its secret code

#73

Post by o11c » Sat, Mar 02, 2024, 2:57 AM UTC

skyyler wrote: post #44

SturgeonsLaw wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I couldn't care less if there's a group of people misusing the phrase, logically "I could care less" means the exact opposite of "I couldn't care less". The majority of the world is not American, and presumably the majority of Americans don't use the incorrect phrase, so why should the rest of the world cater for a minority within a minority by putting their butchered phrase on equal footing with the correct phrase?

Because you knew what they meant and trying to correct them only serves to make you feel good about your own knowledge. You aren't helping anyone when you correct them on this.

It costs everyone time and effort to try to decode nonsensical input.

It's a crime against humanity to not correct grammar.

Re: WhatsApp forces Pegasus spyware maker to share its secret code

#74

Post by o11c » Sat, Mar 02, 2024, 3:02 AM UTC

diego_sandoval wrote: post #69

lmm wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The overwhelming majority of dollars are not physical cash, and the overwhelming majority of dollar transactions by volume happen in a fashion which New York claims jurisdiction over (and, ultimately, has a big army that will back them on, which is what really matters in international law), even when neither party has any obvious connection to the US. Even for physical cash, they might claim jurisdiction. Dollars are…

And then people say that cryptocurrencies have no reason to exist. This one right here is a pretty powerful reason.

And yet it is exactly this that allows major criminal organizations like the NSO Group to be prosecuted. "Liberty [from powerful factions]" is explicitly the whole purpose of governments being instituted with the consent of the governed.

I for one would trend toward banning cryptocurrency even if it weren't a complete waste of energy.

Re: WhatsApp forces Pegasus spyware maker to share its secret code

#75

Post by greenavocado » Sat, Mar 02, 2024, 3:24 AM UTC

jevoten wrote: post #43

xxpor wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the NSO group handles dollars. If they didn't respond, they'd lose by default, and the court could order any assets the US can get their hands on seized. If they're getting paid in NIS by countries outside of Israel, the currency conversion happens with dollars as the intermediary. There's the US's window.

How is "Because the NSO group handles dollars" related to "the court could order any assets the US can get their hands on seized"? Presumably, if they were getting paid in bars of gold, the US could seize those too, if they could get their hands on them, no? On the other hand, if they were paid in US dollars, but in cash, that wouldn't establish jurisdiction, nor could it be seized, if the transfer happened outside U…

America's primary tool in warfare is economic in nature. Anybody that does business with the United States must comply with US sanctions.

Re: WhatsApp forces Pegasus spyware maker to share its secret code

#76

Post by pests » Sat, Mar 02, 2024, 3:27 AM UTC

o11c wrote: post #73

skyyler wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because you knew what they meant and trying to correct them only serves to make you feel good about your own knowledge. You aren't helping anyone when you correct them on this.

It costs everyone time and effort to try to decode nonsensical input. It's a crime against humanity to not correct grammar.

Does it? I decode it instantly and understand the meaning just like I know what a "fishbowl" is. There is no "decoding" or even nonsensical input in this case.

You are just being stubborn and trying to adhere to an outdated standard. Upgrade or get replaced.

Re: WhatsApp forces Pegasus spyware maker to share its secret code

#77

Post by jevoten » Sat, Mar 02, 2024, 3:38 AM UTC

vineyardmike wrote: post #54

jevoten wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is "Because the NSO group handles dollars" related to "the court could order any assets the US can get their hands on seized"? Presumably, if they were getting paid in bars of gold, the US could seize those too, if they could get their hands on them, no? On the other hand, if they were paid in US dollars, but in cash, that wouldn't establish jurisdiction, nor could it be seized, if the transfer happened outside U…

How would they get paid? Almost every bank in every us-allied countries would have to comply to hand over the money. The US banking regulations apply overseas because those banks want to interact with US entities. That's the nature of the US-Dollar economy. Are you a French wine maker that wants to sell to America? You better be using USD with a friendly bank to pay for things like import fees/tariffs (or the America…

But that's because they're doing business with banks that want to remain friendly with the US, not because they're doing business specifically in US dollars. If they got paid in Turkish liras, but through a bank under US influence, those liras would also get seized, wouldn't they?

On the other hand, if someone used a local bank in their country to transact with an entity in China, and China demanded their assets in that bank be seized because they defamed a revolutionary hero [1], I would expect that country to block that seizure, regardless of how the bank itself might feel. I.e. they would demand any seizures comply with their local laws, similar to how extraditions (are supposed to) work, and not let other countries essentially steal from their citizens. Or looking at it a bit different, a bank can't take from its customers on behalf of a foreign country, since locals laws, unless they explicitly allow that taking, would consider it theft.

[1] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-lawmaking-idUSKBN1H...

Edit as reply because "I'm posting too fast" (thanks HN for not telling when I can post again by the way):

> Discussion about the US dollar misses the point. They do it because they can

I'd argue it doesn't miss the point, but rather, hides the true cause - that as you say, they do it because they can (as quickly becomes obvious when no other currency has this viral jurisdictional effect).

But I'm curious if anyone has ever tried suing their bank, in a non-US court, alleging that their seizure of their assets was illegal under local law. I can understand a bank rolling over for the US government, but it would be interesting to see if and how their legal system would justify it. Especially for something that is not a crime in their country.

Re: WhatsApp forces Pegasus spyware maker to share its secret code

#78

Post by skyyler » Sat, Mar 02, 2024, 3:39 AM UTC

Onawa wrote: post #45

skyyler wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because you knew what they meant and trying to correct them only serves to make you feel good about your own knowledge. You aren't helping anyone when you correct them on this.

I agree. I've learned to not care when people say 'expresso' instead of 'espresso', and 'ex cetera' instead of 'et cetera'. I know what they mean, you know what they mean, and correcting everyone only serves to alienate others.

A little kindness goes a long way.

Re: WhatsApp forces Pegasus spyware maker to share its secret code

#79

Post by rdtsc » Sat, Mar 02, 2024, 3:43 AM UTC

dkjaudyeqooe wrote: post #16

rdtsc wrote: post #3

> Initially, the NSO sought to block all discovery in the lawsuit, "due to various US and Israeli restrictions," but that blanket request was denied. Interesting approach. The court could probably care less about Israeli restrictions as it's a different country. Officially US govt blacklisted Pegasus https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/11/us-blacklists-ma... . However, I wouldn't be surprised if some US spy agen…

What's "interesting" is that they claim protection available to governments, as if they speak and act on behalf of those governments.

Exactly, that's pretty odd. They could be delusional, just bluffing, or they really expect someone from the US government to put their finger on the scales for them, or make the scale disappear altogether.

Re: WhatsApp forces Pegasus spyware maker to share its secret code

#80

Post by selectodude » Sat, Mar 02, 2024, 3:48 AM UTC

jevoten wrote: post #77

vineyardmike wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would they get paid? Almost every bank in every us-allied countries would have to comply to hand over the money. The US banking regulations apply overseas because those banks want to interact with US entities. That's the nature of the US-Dollar economy. Are you a French wine maker that wants to sell to America? You better be using USD with a friendly bank to pay for things like import fees/tariffs (or the America…

But that's because they're doing business with banks that want to remain friendly with the US, not because they're doing business specifically in US dollars. If they got paid in Turkish liras, but through a bank under US influence, those liras would also get seized, wouldn't they? On the other hand, if someone used a local bank in their country to transact with an entity in China, and China demanded their assets in t…

There are very few FOREX currency pairs that aren’t USD to whatever. Most cross currency trades are currency A to USD and then USD to currency B. So USD is involved and thus the US Government has jurisdiction.