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Esperanto, Toki Pona, Swahili, Indonesian

sive.rs

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Re: Esperanto, Toki Pona, Swahili, Indonesian

#71
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's technically true that someone in China at one point used Esperanto to introduce Western languages to a few other people, because around 1900 it was part of a package of futuristic Western ideas like overthrowing the Emperor and Communism. But the claim omits how utterly unsuccessful Chinese Esperantists were at their goal compared to the revolutionary Communists. (Even though they were sometimes the same…

On the other hand, Esperanto is one of the languages featured by Radio China International ( https://esperanto.cri.cn ), and there's also an official support for the El Cxinia Popolo magazine, and maybe others I'm not aware of. I'm not sure one can generalize 1) the antagonism between the communist government and Esperanto and 2) the lack of skills of the Chinese Esperanto speakers.

There is no antagonism between the government and Esperanto that I'm aware of, more like disinterest. As I mentioned, there was originally a lot of overlap between people supporting either cause, but Esperanto simply never got as popular as Communism.

As for China Radio International, the inclusion of Esperanto among the forty-odd languages they translate content into is transparently intended to propagandize to foreign Esperantists more so than promoting the language.

Re: Esperanto, Toki Pona, Swahili, Indonesian

#72
post #54

I am fluent in Spanish having been born and raised in Sunset Park, Brooklyn in the mid-60s through the mid-80s, which had a large Puerto Rican and Dominican population. Being half-Irish and half-Ukrainian, I spent some time at the Irish Arts Center in NYC learning Irish in the 90s. Given there were about 200k speakers of Irish worldwide back then, and now only 68k I believe, it was more of a curiosity for me then. I…

Wow, Eggy, you have a really interesting background and even more interesting continued pursuit. Consider connecting: https://sive.rs/contact

Re: Esperanto, Toki Pona, Swahili, Indonesian

#73
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i'm not sure what you are referring to

I was responding to the thing about Chinese specifically.

which rules and which other entirely different system are you referring to? or, which system do you think i am judging by the rules used to construct chinese?

i'm making a lot of effort here to express myself clearly and to understand your ideas, but i feel like you aren't really meeting me halfway

Re: Esperanto, Toki Pona, Swahili, Indonesian

#74

> But for me, still, the language with the greatest unlocking power is clearly Mandarin Chinese Chinese has really excellent grammar. No conjugation, no tenses, no words that change with gender. (All the rest of it is hard though, at least for an English speaker)

tones.

or knowing what a character means, but not knowing how to say it. or knowing how to say something, but not knowing the character.

Vietnamese was easier in that regard.

Re: Esperanto, Toki Pona, Swahili, Indonesian

#75
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

^This seems to have been downvoted for tone. Fair enough, but I do encourage anyone with an interest in Esperanto to read the linked document. It is a classic post on the complexities of Esperanto that are not obvious to the casual learner, that contains quite a lot of insight.

The entire list is just one huge Nirvana fallacy. Okay, so Esperanto is not literally perfect, it has some flaws... and therefore we should reject it, and instead use some language that has 10x or 100x more of exactly the same flaws? How does that make sense? Some of the objections, I am not even sure what the author tried to say. For example, point 01a, Esperanto has only 5 vowels, while English has 19. Uhm, interes…

I tend to agree with your three specific objections:

- 5 vowels is actually a very good choice (although the diphthongs in Esperanto are notably odd)

- pronouncing the R differently is unavoidable and probably fine

- the x-method works okay in practice (although I subjectively don’t really like it)

The linked page is “the page” on the problems with Esperanto, and I still think that it has a lot of insight, even if I don’t agree with every point he makes.

For example, I had no idea how much East Slavic grammar influenced Esperanto, or how important word order was in practice for complex sentences.

I think it’s reasonable that a much better IAL than Esperanto could be designed today, given all the knowledge of linguistics that we now have, and all of the experienced conlangers. I don’t think that Esperanto is so good that surpassing it would be “one huge nirvana fallacy”.

But I also don’t expect anyone to ever make an IAL that is more successful than Esperanto, because Esperanto’s success was a product of its time.

Nowadays, with the status of English, and the availability of machine translation, an IAL is just less important than it once was.

On a positive note: I recommend the book “In the Land of Invented Languages” by Arika Okrent for a history of conlangs.

As a shibboleth, here is a sample of my own shitty conlang, whose design I will not attempt to defend:

anu, ʃamuti usli bisini uma kamlusu slapluŋwu ixla dwamuʒu aku pluŋwuslu bisana aku pwanusu ʒapwunu aku pumuʃwu ixla bluŋusu ʃwutuŋu aku pluŋwuslu aʃa ʒubunlu dimivi… azi ʃumuti ivwu sunwubi xubuŋu bisini uma ʒamigi ivwu vamidi idu bisini bunluʒu xudwunu iza. ʒamigi ivwu vamidi idu bisini uma bisini sudumu fupumu fupumu uta βubunu uta ʃutwumu itu tunuʒu ixla buʒunlu. kiŋliɣi ixla tiniʒi guŋuʒu iba: ʃamiti kiɣiŋi uma mlupuʃu, iʒi igi vabwiŋli ʃubunu uta afu, iʒi xinlipi baʒinli mlupuʃu, azi xunlapa usli bisini mlupuʃu. ʒlumlaga bisini ŋlagusu bisana ibi vwadluŋlu itu xunlapa bisini ŋuguʒu, azi vaŋupa usli, iʒa zwuŋika ivwu suŋibwa bisini ŋladluvwu ixla ŋatuɣwu. udi ʒiŋiti biʒinli busini paŋuɸu xwaguŋu uŋwa ʒabunlu iʒi ʃumuti ivwu sunwubi xwuguŋu bisini uma xanlipi bisini ŋuguʒu. dwinixi iba. iʒi xaŋiti bisini. diŋixwi ixla paŋiɸi xwagiŋi vwiŋigi ivwu sinwibi guŋuʃu bisana, paŋiɸi uŋwa kaŋiɣli pamluzu.

Re: Esperanto, Toki Pona, Swahili, Indonesian

#76

I learned Esperanto years ago, not because I wanted to speak the language, but because I heard that students who learned it had an easier time picking up third languages, to the point that they'd surpass those who had been learning that 3rd language (as their second) the whole time! It seems that that strong of a claim has been since removed from Wikipedia, and I am skeptical about it as well. I wish I had spent the…

> It seems that that strong of a claim has been since removed from Wikipedia It's still on Wikipedia, as the "Paderborn method": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paderborn_method I'm not sure if Paderborn's claim is true. I'd love to see more modern attempts to replicate it.

Yeah, but its mention on the main Esperanto page no longer mentions the details of the study where the Esperanto first group surpassed the 'Always English', and instead critiques the study.

Re: Esperanto, Toki Pona, Swahili, Indonesian

#77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It seems that that strong of a claim has been since removed from Wikipedia It's still on Wikipedia, as the "Paderborn method": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paderborn_method I'm not sure if Paderborn's claim is true. I'd love to see more modern attempts to replicate it.

Yeah, but its mention on the main Esperanto page no longer mentions the details of the study where the Esperanto first group surpassed the 'Always English', and instead critiques the study.

The main Esperanto page? Which one do you mean?

Re: Esperanto, Toki Pona, Swahili, Indonesian

#78
post #61
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spanish and German are far more consistent than English. Mandarin Chinese has Pinyin which is modern and quite consistent - Pinyin is very useful because you can type it and select the corresponding Chinese characters.

Mao once considered replacing Chinese characters with Pinyin!

Mandarin speakers will probably forget how to write characters over time anyway, as they depend so much on Pinyin.

Re: Esperanto, Toki Pona, Swahili, Indonesian

#79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spanish is easy except for those pesky conjugations. But, do you know how hard it is to fluidly conjugate into 50 verb forms in spoken speech? Plus, people gloss over this fact, but Spanish is highly inflected. After you choose 1 out of 50 conjugation for your form, you have to choose a gender for your noun, and inflect your adjectives by number and gender. Conceptually, it’s not difficult. But if you open your mouth…

Yes but conjugations is not something you have to worry about, especially at the beginning. In a language with articles, you can do mistakes in conjugation, yet if you use the article people will understand what/who is the subject and still understand. When you learn a language, focus on present tense. By using words like before/after/yesterday/tomorrow you can keep using present tense and be understood by a native s…

This. Also, you don't need to use compound conjugations at first. This might be wrong for the Spanish Iberian dialects the same way it's a bit wrong too in English, but if you don't say "I've just eat" instead of "I ate" everyone will understand you fine.

Re: Esperanto, Toki Pona, Swahili, Indonesian

#80
post #2

Sadly, Esperanto is only easy to learn if you already speak a European language, and even then it helps even more if you speak one of the languages Zamenhof, its inventor, spoke. http://jbr.me.uk/ranto/#01 > Zamenhof included in Esperanto every Polish phoneme with a consistently used letter or digraph of its own, leaving out only the ones that are harder to recognise as phonemes: the nasal vowels, “soft” (palatalised…

I have learned Esperanto using Duolingo and I made more mistakes in English (which was the language in which that Esperanto course was tought) than in Esperanto. Mainly because Esperanto is very regular without all those edge cases which English has. BTW English is my second language, Czech is my first and I have some limited knowledge of German.

I created a x.com account to help me learn Czech. Follow me @horymirzika
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