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The virtuous mean between time drunkenness and work martyrdom

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Re: The virtuous mean between time drunkenness and work martyrdom

#71

Post by badpun »

zitterbewegung wrote: post #4

It’s strange that we even work more or even at the same amount of time as 100 years ago. We have systems that increase worker productivity and even software by itself for the most part should be decreasing the amount of work to be done since it’s supposedly a large force multiplier for productivity. Economists predicted we would be working less (but they are bad at predicting most things) so while there might be a fe…

It’s by choice. Most people in the US could achieve 1920s standard of living by working for a fraction of standard career (say 10-20 years), and retiring early. Instead, people choose to work till old age, to be able to afford modern comforts and pleasures.

Re: The virtuous mean between time drunkenness and work martyrdom

#72

Post by drothlis »

madaxe_again wrote: post #28

I learned these lessons the hard way. I have, through my life, oscillated from one extreme to the other - at school, this manifested as an utter indifference to lessons, preferring to read under the desk, yet a week of frantic learning in which I would absorb the year or term’s lessons. I was mostly time drunk at this point. Come graduation, I had an urgent need for income, to support both myself and family members w…

Beautiful.

Re: The virtuous mean between time drunkenness and work martyrdom

#73

Post by jonathanlydall »

lm28469 wrote: post #69
badcppdev wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those of us who survive childbirth and childhood probably do work longer hours than some of our ancestors. I refuse to agree that it is "relatively bad" because I am happy that I live in a medically advanced civilisation with low childhood mortality and high life expectancies.

I guess if you only look at the upsides it's not such a bad place.

Likewise, I guess if you only look at the downsides it's not such a great place.

Re: The virtuous mean between time drunkenness and work martyrdom

#74

Post by acdha »

kortilla wrote: post #22
acdha wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is bizarrely incongruous with the news about living conditions experienced by people who are homeless, disabled, etc. Anyone who isn’t working is going to have a worse experience than almost anyone who was working a century ago - even coal miners got to sleep indoors!

Being unemployed does not result in homelessness unless you also join it with either a drug addition or an aversion to the requirements of unemployment/shelter programs.

You’re assuming that those programs are well funded enough to have space available, it’s safe, and doesn’t come with the expectation of working. I don’t know where you live but that’s a long way from being universally true in the United States.

Re: The virtuous mean between time drunkenness and work martyrdom

#75

Post by compumetrika »

zitterbewegung wrote: post #4

It’s strange that we even work more or even at the same amount of time as 100 years ago. We have systems that increase worker productivity and even software by itself for the most part should be decreasing the amount of work to be done since it’s supposedly a large force multiplier for productivity. Economists predicted we would be working less (but they are bad at predicting most things) so while there might be a fe…

I think the data are that we are working a bit less than we used to, it's rather that the norms and mental categories have shifted. For example 40hr work week is now a sort of norm, vs "sunrise to sunset."

The average workday is also much safer and less physically painful than it used to be.

There are two things I have in mind, and if I have time later I'll see if I can find them and update the post -- one chart of total working hours per worker, and one article, about how much added safety has or hasn't slowed down productivity growth (which inevitably has a lot of data in it about workplace injury and death over time).

Children also work much less than they used to.

I think that Keynes wasn't completely wrong in his prediction (...and maybe if AI really kicks off he will be more vindicated, just missed on the timing)

Re: The virtuous mean between time drunkenness and work martyrdom

#76

Post by joshuahedlund »

zitterbewegung wrote: post #4

It’s strange that we even work more or even at the same amount of time as 100 years ago. We have systems that increase worker productivity and even software by itself for the most part should be decreasing the amount of work to be done since it’s supposedly a large force multiplier for productivity. Economists predicted we would be working less (but they are bad at predicting most things) so while there might be a fe…

Work may have not decreased, but due to productivity an hour of work buys WAY more than it did 100 years ago. Our shelter is larger, climate-controlled, with plumbing and electricity. Our food has way more variety, quality, and year-round availability, carries fewer diseases, and can be stored in a giant cold box inside our homes for longer preservation. Our transportation is climate-controlled, faster, safer, and more convenient.

Everything we use our wages on has seen massive gains in quality. It’s just that instead of working less and being just as poor as we were in 1924, we work the same and buy the uber top level wealthy (in 1924 terms) version of everything.

Re: The virtuous mean between time drunkenness and work martyrdom

#77

Post by lm28469 »

jonathanlydall wrote: post #73
lm28469 wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess if you only look at the upsides it's not such a bad place.

Likewise, I guess if you only look at the downsides it's not such a great place.

idk, the medically advanced civilization means my parents are paying 5k a month for my grandma's retirement house, essentially draining all their savings. Is this progress or were multi generation house better ? What's sure is that my parent's 90sqm house they're paying for the last 20 years and will pay for the next 15 years isn't big enough for that

My grandparents afforded 4 kids on a single paycheck, I can barely sustain myself and my gf while having a job in one of the best paying sector. They retired at 60, while working 35 hours per week, at that rate I won't legally be able to retire before 70+ and I'm working 42 hours per week

I could go on and on and on

Re: The virtuous mean between time drunkenness and work martyrdom

#78

Post by caddemon »

lm28469 wrote: post #77
jonathanlydall wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Likewise, I guess if you only look at the downsides it's not such a great place.

idk, the medically advanced civilization means my parents are paying 5k a month for my grandma's retirement house, essentially draining all their savings. Is this progress or were multi generation house better ? What's sure is that my parent's 90sqm house they're paying for the last 20 years and will pay for the next 15 years isn't big enough for that My grandparents afforded 4 kids on a single paycheck, I can barely…

How big was their house? 3 of my 4 grandparents grew up in multi-generational houses, all of their parents were very working class, and yes they "afforded" raising kids and housing their elderly. Their houses were not bigger than 100 sqm though. All shared rooms, and there was typically 1 bathroom for the entire household. Clothes were hand me downs and meals were only what they could afford, so the meat in their diet was mostly weird low quality stuff. They shared bath water! The lifestyle described is 100% still attainable today. It is your parent's choice not to have grandparents in the house - in line with societal standards today, but certainly not impossible.

Re: The virtuous mean between time drunkenness and work martyrdom

#79

Post by richrichie »

mschuster91 wrote: post #67
richrichie wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is much less pollution now, life expectancy has never been higher, deaths from natural disasters have never been lower, etc, etc. Only a pathological pessimist would describe today’s world a mess compared to what it was 100 years ago.

> Only a pathological pessimist would describe today’s world a mess compared to what it was 100 years ago. The problem is the future outlook, not the status quo. Climate change effects on the Northern Hemisphere (i.e. continental USA, most of Europe) haven't really become visible yet, at least not for up until the last 5-ish years that have all blown past records for extreme adversary weather events. In addition to t…

If we really do care, we cannot have people living in Northern Europe, America and Canada. It is criminal to insist to live under conditions humans cannot survive without heating.

I suggest mass migration to Africa.

Re: The virtuous mean between time drunkenness and work martyrdom

#80

Post by lm28469 »

caddemon wrote: post #78
lm28469 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

idk, the medically advanced civilization means my parents are paying 5k a month for my grandma's retirement house, essentially draining all their savings. Is this progress or were multi generation house better ? What's sure is that my parent's 90sqm house they're paying for the last 20 years and will pay for the next 15 years isn't big enough for that My grandparents afforded 4 kids on a single paycheck, I can barely…

How big was their house? 3 of my 4 grandparents grew up in multi-generational houses, all of their parents were very working class, and yes they "afforded" raising kids and housing their elderly. Their houses were not bigger than 100 sqm though. All shared rooms, and there was typically 1 bathroom for the entire household. Clothes were hand me downs and meals were only what they could afford, so the meat in their die…

In the tech bubble maybe, but in the real world certainly not. In the golden age you had that as a fancy factory worker, now you have that if you're well paid in a well paid industry

Real wages completely flattened since the 70s, and even declined in some western countries, while working hours and retirement age both increased. No one in 2024 supports a family and buys a new home/car on a factory salary, I can't even afford any of that while being in the top 20% earners in Germany, given the average cost per sqm and the current mortgage settings, I could afford a 50sqm house with a 30 years mortgage...

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