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Air Canada Has to Honor a Refund Policy Its Chatbot Made Up

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Re: Air Canada Has to Honor a Refund Policy Its Chatbot Made Up

#71

Post by yieldcrv »

floatrock wrote: post #36

Here's the real punchline: > Experts told the Vancouver Sun that Air Canada may have succeeded in avoiding liability in Moffatt's case if its chatbot had warned customers that the information that the chatbot provided may not be accurate. Here's a glimpse into our Kafka-esque AI-powered future: every corporate lawyer is now making sure any customer service request will be gated by a chatbot containing a disclaimer li…

or its buried on the 4th page of the disclaimer

if you read them there is often stuff like that, the most flagrant one I read said “everything above should be considered apocryphal”

Re: Air Canada Has to Honor a Refund Policy Its Chatbot Made Up

#72

Post by alsetmusic »

My father died in hospice the night before a flight to see him. I missed the flight because there was no longer any reason to get to the airport before dawn. I called to reschedule a few hours later.

The human on the other end rescheduled and gave me a bereavement rate. She told me it was less money, but didn't mention the reason. I didn't put that together until later. She just helped me out because she had compassion.

I am too cynical to think that an AI controlled by a corporation will do this.

Re: Air Canada Has to Honor a Refund Policy Its Chatbot Made Up

#73

Post by jeffbee »

acdha wrote: post #65
jeffbee wrote: post #44

I don't even see how this is a big story. An expressed representation about what a product is or does, how it works, and the terms of sale in consumer contexts are binding on the seller. It is the same in America. If you go into a store and they say that you can return it if you don't like it, then you can. If you buy a TV and the guy at the store tells you it also makes pancakes, you can get your money back if it tu…

The interest in this story comes from the fact that Air Canada tried to fight it using the argument that they aren’t liable for anything their agents say. Businesses around the world are so eager to start laying people off that it’s almost certain that they will not be the only ones to try a variation on that claim. I see the important point being reinforcing liability laws and especially not allowing them to shirk r…

I mean, they're welcome to try, and this can't be the first attempt. But there's plenty of jurisprudence at least in the USA that you can't disclaim expressed representations.

Re: Air Canada Has to Honor a Refund Policy Its Chatbot Made Up

#74

Post by gray_-_wolf »

RajT88 wrote: post #62
rainbowzootsuit wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US at least once that notification that "the call may be recorded for quality assurance " happens, both parties have been notified and you're good to record regardless of the state you are in. What do you use for recording your calls?

I used to use a couple of apps like Cube ACR, or Call Recorder Pro, but these no longer work, and I'm skeptical of the workarounds to get them working again. Given the new restrictions in Android 10, probably the way forward is a passthrough device which uses 3.5mm connectors to MITM the audio. I haven't found one which is a sure bet yet.

The motorola android I have has phone recording in the stock phonecall app, so I just use that.

Re: Air Canada Has to Honor a Refund Policy Its Chatbot Made Up

#75

Post by ToucanLoucan »

somat wrote: post #63
ToucanLoucan wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I bet if we removed the requirement to get a lawyer and file a lawsuit that those behaviors would vanish real quick, if all you had to do as the wronged consumer was report to an authority that Company X is doing business dishonestly.

You are probably not wrong, however take note that this is exactly the line of thinking that led to the DMCA. Beware the law of unintended consequences. To misquote you. "I bet if we removed the requirement to get a lawyer and file a lawsuit that those behaviors would vanish real quick, if all you had to do as the wronged copyright holder was report to an authority(the hosting service) that Company X is infringing on…

Point to you there, but also I would never in a thousand years trust a company, especially a publicly traded one, with that kind of power.

Re: Air Canada Has to Honor a Refund Policy Its Chatbot Made Up

#76

Post by dataflow »

wing-_-nuts wrote: post #38
quartz wrote: post #4

> "Air Canada argues it cannot be held liable for information provided by one of its agents, servants, or representatives—including a chatbot," Rivers wrote. "It does not explain why it believes that is the case" or "why the webpage titled 'Bereavement travel' was inherently more trustworthy than its chatbot." This is very reasonable-- AI or not, companies can't expect consumers to know which parts of their digital e…

I once ordered a gift for my father for christmass. The order page indicated that it would arrive on time. When it didn't arrive, I requested a refund. They then pointed to their FAQ page where they said that orders during the holidays would incur extra processing time, and refused the refund. I wrote back that unless they issused a refund, I would issue a charge back. You don't get to present the customer with one t…

This actually sounds like an interesting case to me because the details make a huge legal difference in my mind. (But IANAL, maybe I'm entirely off base here.)

E.g., did they tell you the shipping date after you placed the order, or before? If it was afterward, then it can't have invalidated the contract... you agreed to it without knowing when it would ship. If they told you before, then was it before they knew your shipping address, or after? If it was beforehand, then again, it should've been clear that they wouldn't be able to guarantee it without knowing the address. If it was after they got the address but before you placed the order, then that makes for a strong case, since it was specific to your order and what you agreed to before placing it.

Re: Air Canada Has to Honor a Refund Policy Its Chatbot Made Up

#77

Post by deegles »

floatrock wrote: post #36

Here's the real punchline: > Experts told the Vancouver Sun that Air Canada may have succeeded in avoiding liability in Moffatt's case if its chatbot had warned customers that the information that the chatbot provided may not be accurate. Here's a glimpse into our Kafka-esque AI-powered future: every corporate lawyer is now making sure any customer service request will be gated by a chatbot containing a disclaimer li…

much like Tesla's Autopilot which cannot be responsible for an accident because you're supposed to be hands-on-wheel and alert at all times while using it.

Re: Air Canada Has to Honor a Refund Policy Its Chatbot Made Up

#78

Post by RajT88 »

gray_-_wolf wrote: post #74
RajT88 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to use a couple of apps like Cube ACR, or Call Recorder Pro, but these no longer work, and I'm skeptical of the workarounds to get them working again. Given the new restrictions in Android 10, probably the way forward is a passthrough device which uses 3.5mm connectors to MITM the audio. I haven't found one which is a sure bet yet.

The motorola android I have has phone recording in the stock phonecall app, so I just use that.

Nothing like that on the Samsungs I've owned. Next phone will be a Pixel, so we'll see.

Re: Air Canada Has to Honor a Refund Policy Its Chatbot Made Up

#79

Post by denton-scratch »

alexey-salmin wrote: post #41
hnfong wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since it's a scandal, it worked until it didn't. And AFAICT "the computer did it" wasn't the argument, it was "the computer did it so it must be correct because the experts said so".

So did they held any humans accountable then? This wasn't the case when I checked but I probably missed some updates

> So did they held any humans accountable then?

Not yet. The Inquiry is still taking evidence. They haven't taken evidence from the big-hitters yet, that begins in April.

In fact the Inquiry doesn't "hold humans accountable"; but they can compel witnesses, who testify under oath.

Gerald Barnes is the Fujitsu engineer who stated in the prosecution cases that Horizon was reliable ("robust"). His testimony to the Inquiry has been delayed, because on the morning he was supposed to testify, the Post Office "discovered" a million or so emails that they'd failed to disclose. So he'll be on the stand in April, along with the senior execs.

The Inquiry videos make quite pleasant watching; the lawyers and the judge are immaculately polite, there are no trick questions, and it's all about finding out what happened. I'm looking forward to seeing the senior execs on the stand.

The police are following the Inquiry; nobody's been charged, and my guess is they'll hold off on charging people until the Inquiry is over (that's part of the purpose of statutory inquiries). So the succession of Post Office Ministers that have overseen this disgrace will all be out of office by then.

Re: Air Canada Has to Honor a Refund Policy Its Chatbot Made Up

#80

Post by lawkwok »

yifanl wrote: post #51

https://decisions.civilresolutionbc.ca/crt/crtd/en/item/5254... The resolution is n amazingly clear piece of legal writing that explains the involved thought process of the the decision and then awarding the damages. I might end up using this pattern for writing out cause and effect.

Thanks for sharing. I really enjoyed the read and the concise decision-making and legal terms used.
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