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Derek Sivers Renounces his US Citizenship

federalregister.gov

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Re: Derek Sivers Renounces his US Citizenship

#71

Post by rdtsc »

mbesto wrote: post #35

Not sure if he reason is tax related, but I will say this...I'm not starting a company abroad without renouncing my US citizenship. I've been living in and out of the US for the last 4 years now and the fact that we get taxed when we are outside of the country is ludicrous to say the least. Are we really that arrogant?

I wonder it if it stems from entities like corporations and individuals being treated in a similar fashion by some law. So they don't want to all of the sudden to have every single US company to end up headquartered in the Cayman Islands.

Also if they don't do this. It pretty much guarantees that any wealthy individual will leave the country for a tax haven. Say you reach a $10M/year income if your tax rate is 30% in US, given your financial status, it would be very easy for you to move to Mexico or another country and just say "Well, I am not in US anymore, can't tax me".

Now in actuality this is already happening. They are just making it harder. They are trying to plug the holes in hunk of Swiss cheese.

Re: Derek Sivers Renounces his US Citizenship

#72

Post by waterlesscloud »

ajross wrote: post #31
marshallp wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's been talk recently of wealthy americans fleeing the country for tax reasons. If Obama gets reelected, as is expected, he's gonna go all out in his second term (I'm an Obama supporter but I dislike the idea of taxing the entrepreneurs more to fund the lazy government workers).

...Obama has a propsal to tax entrepreneurs? Rant time: I despise what political discourse in this country has become. Rather than talk about policy we've trained everyone (like marshallp here) to regurgitate sound bites about how this or that politician is "gonna go all out" to do whatever evil thing sounds fun this week. Look: tax policy is a bunch of boring laws. You can read them if you like. You can look at prop…

You think that "my money" is an inaccurate term in some way?

Re: Derek Sivers Renounces his US Citizenship

#74

Post by mahmud »

brd wrote: post #68
mahmud wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Be a U.S. citizen but don't live there. That is the best option of them all, and one I took.

What? This is most certainly not the best option. As a U.S. citizen you are required to pay taxes on income earned worldwide and from my understanding you can only deduct up to ~95k in 2012. From what I've read, being a US citizen and working abroad is expensive and one of the main motivations for people to renounce their US citizenship.

I can't afford not to be a U.S. citizen. I'm a non-millionaire atheist black man with a Muslim name and an American accent. My kind don't last long in the wilderness, I will be traded by intel agencies like a baseball card.

Re: Derek Sivers Renounces his US Citizenship

#75

Post by _delirium »

jlgreco wrote: post #26
pinko wrote: post #2

Is anyone else slightly surprised that: (a) this is public info online, and; (b) it's apparently public because, of all things, HIPPA?

The US practices 'name and shame' for people who renounce their citizenship. This doesn't make sense until you consider they're probably just bitter about lost taxes.

It's not that uncommon for citizenship changes, in either direction, to be public record. In some countries they're even pro-forma passed as laws through parliament, which of course then becomes public record. (In Denmark, at least, only the parliament has the right to grant or revoke Danish citizenship for any reason, an old restriction intended as a protection against the King arbitrarily doing so. In practice the immigration authorities draw up lists of people, and Parliament rubber-stamps the lists a few times a year, reading them into the legislative record.)

Another reason to make them public is that otherwise there's no way to determine if someone is actually a U.S. citizen, since there's no central register. For example, someone with a birth certificate showing they were born in the U.S. is a U.S. citizen by birth... unless they've renounced it. So to determine if someone is a citizen you need: 1) a copy of their birth certificate; and 2) a list of renunciations so you can check that they aren't on it. Sort of like how key revocation works in crypto— you can't actually haul back the original documents, so you have to publish a revocation list.

Re: Derek Sivers Renounces his US Citizenship

#76

Post by ajross »

waterlesscloud wrote: post #72
ajross wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...Obama has a propsal to tax entrepreneurs? Rant time: I despise what political discourse in this country has become. Rather than talk about policy we've trained everyone (like marshallp here) to regurgitate sound bites about how this or that politician is "gonna go all out" to do whatever evil thing sounds fun this week. Look: tax policy is a bunch of boring laws. You can read them if you like. You can look at prop…

You think that "my money" is an inaccurate term in some way?

The beauty of good spin is that it can be "accurate" without being "complete" or "informative". So it can fool the weak-minded into emotional responses (in this case, that tax is "like theft" and thus evil [removed, see below]. So what if tax starts as "your" money? You still need to pay it. Don't like the current policy? Then state a new one; don't spin.

Edit: removed the "zero tax" bit as apparently it sounds like spin. I don't think it changes the point. (was: ", even though no one sane thinks a zero tax policy is possible")

Re: Derek Sivers Renounces his US Citizenship

#77

Post by doktrin »

jarek wrote: post #58
achille2 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mind listing out the countries, and how one goes about becoming a citizenship collector? My parents sacrificed an incredible deal to come to the US. For the life of me I can't comprehend why someone would do this. Loss of citizenship is permanent. Your kids lose it as well. Why would derek would do this to his kids.

> For the life of me I can't comprehend why someone would do this. Loss of citizenship is permanent. Your kids lose it as well. Why would derek would do this to his kids. Maybe he doesn't want his kids to have to deal with the U.S. I.R.S. every year of their life, regardless of whether or not they live in the U.S.? Just one of the possible reasons.

That seems implausible. If anything, maybe he doesn't want to deal with the IRS for the rest of his life.

After all, it's not a burden on his children until they begin collecting income. If the concern is really for the children, it would be more pragmatic to give them sufficient time to make up their own mind.

Re: Derek Sivers Renounces his US Citizenship

#78

Post by tzs »

achille2 wrote: post #19
mahmud wrote: post #12

As someone who holds three nationalities, and is 2 years away from a fourth: I look forward to the day I hold none. Beligerence of the "State" knows no bounds, I hope we can free ourselves from this regressive construct and, once again, live in this world judged by our own merit and character, beholden to none.

Mind listing out the countries, and how one goes about becoming a citizenship collector? My parents sacrificed an incredible deal to come to the US. For the life of me I can't comprehend why someone would do this. Loss of citizenship is permanent. Your kids lose it as well. Why would derek would do this to his kids.

According to his blog, as of last year he had moved to Singapore and it appeared he intended that to be his permanent home.

Perhaps he has decided to obtain Singapore citizenship? Singapore requires those who obtain naturalized citizenship there to renounce all other citizenships they hold.

Re: Derek Sivers Renounces his US Citizenship

#79

Post by biomene »

InclinedPlane wrote: post #47
mahmud wrote: post #12

As someone who holds three nationalities, and is 2 years away from a fourth: I look forward to the day I hold none. Beligerence of the "State" knows no bounds, I hope we can free ourselves from this regressive construct and, once again, live in this world judged by our own merit and character, beholden to none.

The idealogically pure idea of stateless citizens working in harmony of their own free accord is a fantasy that doesn't mesh with reality and just as dangerous as any Marxist Communist fantasy. In the right here and right now states are far from perfect, and we are in the middle of a period where lots of forces are pushing for greater consolidation of power in the hands of the state. But the benefit of having governm…

In what way is communism dangerous? I fail to see any inherent danger in a form of society that distributes its wealth evenly across its citizens.

Re: Derek Sivers Renounces his US Citizenship

#80

Post by waterlesscloud »

runako wrote: post #21
patrocles wrote: post #13

The US Tax Code incents US citizens to drop their citizenship before they have 2M USD in net worth. http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/877

At best, you're referring only to US expatriates. The article you linked does not apply to people living in the US at all. Also, political innuendo aside, Sivers doesn't mention tax avoidance in his reasons for moving to Singapore: http://sivers.org/singapore

The law in question defines things in such a way that it's assumed you are renouncing your citizenship for tax purposes if your income or net worth are over certain thresholds. It provides for exceptions under specific conditions and allows for govt officials to grant documented exceptions if you can convince them to do so.

The assumption, though, is probably correct far more often than not.

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