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EU chip goal 'unrealistic' says ASML CEO

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Re: EU chip goal 'unrealistic' says ASML CEO

#71

Post by vidarh »

logifail wrote: post #62
jacquesm wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a local I support this. Simply because having more smart people eventually benefits Dutch society and the long term is far more important than the short term. Usually this argument is based in some for of jealousy, but consider: an expat gives up their current life to chance it all on another, has stupendously high private costs if they want to keep up with their family and has to start all over again from scratch…

> having more smart people eventually benefits Dutch society Given that most of them don't stay for even five years[0], how does their temporary presence benefit society? [0] "80% of expat employees use the facility for 5 years or less" https://www.government.nl/topics/income-tax/shortening-30-pe...

It's they stay that short, how much do they tend to rely on taxable benefits?

Someone who stays a few years at the peak of above average earnings might well be highly economically beneficial even at a steep tax discount.

I don't think governments ought to compete on tax in general, but this is one where it might both be a net benefit and there is the arguable case that most tax systems are geared towards people in working age overpaying to compensate for the cost of caring for children and the elderly.

Someone who comes temporarily during working age without a discount will get the downside without the benefit.

This will be a bigger problem for the competitive ability in places with comprehensive social support mechanisms.

Given dropping birth rates, trying to offset that to be an attractive place to immigrate to may well be worth it even if most leave again - especially as long as it's profitable too.

But if your concern is that it doesn't attract people who will stay, maybe there are ways to incentivise that too. E.g. let people earn a discount where a portion does not pay out unless they stay longer.

Re: EU chip goal 'unrealistic' says ASML CEO

#72

Post by epups »

logifail wrote: post #62
jacquesm wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a local I support this. Simply because having more smart people eventually benefits Dutch society and the long term is far more important than the short term. Usually this argument is based in some for of jealousy, but consider: an expat gives up their current life to chance it all on another, has stupendously high private costs if they want to keep up with their family and has to start all over again from scratch…

> having more smart people eventually benefits Dutch society Given that most of them don't stay for even five years[0], how does their temporary presence benefit society? [0] "80% of expat employees use the facility for 5 years or less" https://www.government.nl/topics/income-tax/shortening-30-pe...

Having a foreigner stay in the long term could be worse, economically. Five years of taxation on highly-paid individuals - who are presumably producing far more than their salary to the companies paying them - is essentially free money for the country. You did not spend tax money on their education so far and are reaping all the benefits.

Now, if they stay permanently, you will have to pay their pensions and healthcare, which are very expensive.

Re: EU chip goal 'unrealistic' says ASML CEO

#73

Post by dmpk2k »

jacquesm wrote: post #40
logifail wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One wonders how much of it is incompetence and how much just plain corruption Well, one doesn't need to look very long at Von der Leyen to work out it's probably both. Look at what she did before becoming EU Commission president ("Among friends and foes alike, von der Leyen’s stewardship of the [German] defense ministry, which she [..] headed since 2014, [was] regarded as a failure."[0]), and look at how she ended…

> I have several ex-RAF friends, and their joke back then was that von der Leyen had more children than her ministry had working fast jets. What a dumb joke, besides the RAF being British, I wonder if your friends had made the same joke if she had been a man.

I find it funny.

Re: EU chip goal 'unrealistic' says ASML CEO

#74

Post by ouroborosidiots »

izacus wrote: post #59
jacquesm wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a local I support this. Simply because having more smart people eventually benefits Dutch society and the long term is far more important than the short term. Usually this argument is based in some for of jealousy, but consider: an expat gives up their current life to chance it all on another, has stupendously high private costs if they want to keep up with their family and has to start all over again from scratch…

How exactly does that benefit the country outside driving up the cost of living for locals (which can't afford rents, houses or other services), since they actually have to pay taxes and are outbid by foreigners which don't really contribute that much to the tax base or have any intention of staying beyond the time in which they extract maximum wealth?

> driving up the cost of living for locals.

That means they are spending a lot of money they earn on the local economy itself no? So even if their taxes are higher, if they are creating value in the economy, the locals do end up seeing those benefits imo.

From the perspective of a someone in country that loses a lot of talented/educated citizens to brain drain, If i were in charge of a country to which high skilled immigrants flock to - even if it is for a limited time, I'd try to see what I can do to convert them to permanent residents. It is a tricky thing to balance because the locals shouldn't feel like second class citizens in their own lands. But at the same time, if skilled people are migrating away - that's a lot of missed potential/opportunity.

Re: EU chip goal 'unrealistic' says ASML CEO

#75

Post by vidarh »

poisonborz wrote: post #58
jacquesm wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure if I understand your question correctly, but if you mean the pay compared to US tech companies active in NL then I would say it depends very much on your specialization. Engineer: 40k and up, team lead: 70k and up, project manager: 90k and up. I don't have much data on other roles but the 'and up' is the big factor, depends on seniority and specific skills. What really strikes me is that an extremely hig…

That's truly sad if true and up to date. Your top of 70k for a staff engineer is a common senior salary at any software company in DACH area (working on totally boring tech like Salesforce or SAP). If that's for an industry as as unique as chip production, something is very off.

Where did you read top of 70k? He stated 70k and up for a team lead, not a staff engineer. 70k is the bottom for that role. Given the starting point is that for 'just' a team lead, presumably a staff engineer would start much higher, if they have that role.

I agree it's low given even a team lead role, but it depends on how many are on the low end of their pay scale.

Re: EU chip goal 'unrealistic' says ASML CEO

#76

Post by seydor »

Not something new.

In 2000 the EU Lisbon strategy announce that it would be "the most competitive and dynamic knowledge-based economy in the world capable of sustainable economic growth with more and better jobs and greater social cohesion", by 2010

Re: EU chip goal 'unrealistic' says ASML CEO

#77

Post by ChadNauseam »

throwaway4good wrote: post #11

All the big blocks: EU, US, South Korea, Taiwan, and China assume that their subsidy policies will expand their market share. Obviously they cannot all be right. The only that I think is given that will expand its global market share is China. Paradoxically because of the US sanctions and the fact that it relies so much on imports presently.

> Obviously they cannot all be right.

They could all be right that their market share will be higher if they adopt this policy than if they don’t.

Re: EU chip goal 'unrealistic' says ASML CEO

#78

Post by epups »

> According to SEMI, China will have 8.6 million 8 inch equivalent wpm capacity this year, Taiwan will have 5.7 million wpm, Korea will have 5.1 million wpm, Japan will have 4.7 million wpm, the USA will have 3.1 million wpm, Europe will have 2.7 million wpm, and S.E.Asia will have 1.7 million wpm.

In the not quite unrealistic scenario of tensions between China and US increasing, with China possibly annexing Taiwan, it is clear that chips will have to come from Europe, US, Japan and maybe South Korea for the Western market. I think most of these investments are considering that scenario, and then they have to tweak the numbers and make unrealistic estimates to sell that idea as a regular business plan.

Re: EU chip goal 'unrealistic' says ASML CEO

#79

Post by onion2k »

throwaway4good wrote: post #11

All the big blocks: EU, US, South Korea, Taiwan, and China assume that their subsidy policies will expand their market share. Obviously they cannot all be right. The only that I think is given that will expand its global market share is China. Paradoxically because of the US sanctions and the fact that it relies so much on imports presently.

Obviously they cannot all be right.

As a percentage of the market, that's true, but if the subsidies grow the whole market then every block's dollar value of market share can all go up.

Every startup learns this lesson quite early on. It's a heck of a lot easier to grow a market by 5% than it is to take 5% of the market from a competitor, mostly because competitors do things to try to stop you.

Re: EU chip goal 'unrealistic' says ASML CEO

#80

Post by EtienneK »

dekleinewolf wrote: post #69
EtienneK wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those salaries seem quite low compared to the Randstad. If these are true, then the answer is "Yes"...

Can you name me 3 tech companies in the Randstad that aren't consultancy that pay more than that? I don't think these numbers are exceptionally high but they're not low either. Source: Former SWE, current PM in the Randstad.

https://techpays.eu/europe/netherlands
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