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You're Too Old for That: Age Discrimination in Japan Tech

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Re: You're Too Old for That: Age Discrimination in Japan Tech

#71

Post by scruple »

SoftTalker wrote: post #51
JKCalhoun wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We (at Apple) interviewed a guy who was about my age (and I was already in my 50's at that time, ha ha). The interview(s) went great as far as I could suss but when we, the interviewers, met to go around and give the potential hire a thumbs up or thumbs down — one guy on our team was decidedly thumbs down. Why was he thumbs down? "I don't think he's a good fit for the team." When pressed for what that means he simply…

There might be reasons you want to avoid hiring older software devs. I'm in my 50s. I've been through the death marches, the unrealistic goals, the 60-hour weeks, the last minute emergencies, the all-nighters trying to get a release out or trying to recover from the fallout of a poorly tested release. I won't do it anymore. Nobody I know who is my age will do that anymore. There's almost nothing that will keep me at…

I'm pushing into my mid-40s and it's the same story here. I won't do it. I've pulled 90-hour weeks in my career. Weeks on end. Literally working > 12 hour days nonstop for over 30 days. Because someone else fucked up, lied, didn't properly manage the situation... The why isn't even important anymore. I see the why every single day at every single employer. Nothing seems to be changing on that front. Regardless, I'm done with heroics.

Right now, I can still whip systems into shape. I am still massively effective. But if I squint I can see the horizon where I'm not effective and I'm slowly coming to terms with it. Maybe the economy and industry will be right at that point in time and I can pivot to my own thing. Maybe it won't and I'll be forced into early retirement. I'm planning for the latter but hoping for the former.

Re: You're Too Old for That: Age Discrimination in Japan Tech

#72

Post by phendrenad2 »

zeroCalories wrote: post #67
jalapenos wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I don't. I'm specifically commenting on the Japan birthrate trope they reiterated.

I thought the topic was about countries running out of workers. Western countries are doing fine, as they're able to import workers.

There's also the question of what a country even is anymore, other than a company that collects taxes when goods or money move across an arbitrary border, in exchange for using its brand image.

Re: You're Too Old for That: Age Discrimination in Japan Tech

#73

Post by phendrenad2 »

swader999 wrote: post #2

In practical terms, I've never been asked my age in an interview. At some point I'm going to prune my experience if I have to.

Interviewing continues while on the job. People have been put on layoff lists, "encouraged" to quit, and passed over for promotion based on age, too. People have take these cases to court but it's not easy to prove.

Re: You're Too Old for That: Age Discrimination in Japan Tech

#74

Post by iwontberude »

SoftTalker wrote: post #51
JKCalhoun wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We (at Apple) interviewed a guy who was about my age (and I was already in my 50's at that time, ha ha). The interview(s) went great as far as I could suss but when we, the interviewers, met to go around and give the potential hire a thumbs up or thumbs down — one guy on our team was decidedly thumbs down. Why was he thumbs down? "I don't think he's a good fit for the team." When pressed for what that means he simply…

There might be reasons you want to avoid hiring older software devs. I'm in my 50s. I've been through the death marches, the unrealistic goals, the 60-hour weeks, the last minute emergencies, the all-nighters trying to get a release out or trying to recover from the fallout of a poorly tested release. I won't do it anymore. Nobody I know who is my age will do that anymore. There's almost nothing that will keep me at…

Also the older I get in this profession the less my wrists and fingers will let me do. I honestly worry about my career later and whether I will qualify for any assistance if I am disabled from it.

Re: You're Too Old for That: Age Discrimination in Japan Tech

#75

Post by shiroiuma »

wegfawefgawefg wrote: post #6

You know what japan always does though? They always respond to applications. Theres no instant automated rejection email. Theres no getting ghosted by 90% of companies. Pay is bad though.

The pay (for tech jobs) isn't that bad compared to other peer nations. It's bad everywhere, compared to the US, where salaries are much, much higher than pretty much everyplace else, except possibly Switzerland.

However, the cost of living is much lower in Japan than in the large tech-hub cities in the US (and probably even mid-tier cities). Life in the US is really expensive these days.

Re: You're Too Old for That: Age Discrimination in Japan Tech

#76

Post by Dalewyn »

callalex wrote: post #61
stackedinserter wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But startups really can't afford it, what else can they do?

Civilized governments pay the mother’s current salary for a set period of time. Is a great idea.

The cost isn't just about things money can compensate. A new mother on maternity leave (or father on paternity leave for that matter) is:

* Not undergoing training (if applicable, eg: a new hire).

* Not gaining and maintaining experience and knowledge in the field.

* Not making business connections with others in the industry and elsewhere.

* Not keeping up (in regards to new standards and ways of doing) with her workplace and the industry at large; IT industries especially so.

* Not providing her manpower, which must be compensated by another employee(s) who can't just be fired or transferred away when (or if) she returns.

Basically, the overhead of accomodating and compensating for employees that maek babby is simply unacceptable for many businesses, especially the smaller ones and particularly if the babby is had very early in their employment or career.

You might say this is sexism and discrimination (even though it's not; childbirth is a choice to be made), but this is the cold harsh reality. People who agree to be employed are expected to work, not maek babby.

This is also a reason for falling birthrates: More people just want to live and work without the sacrifices demanded by childbirth and rearing. They know their life or career they have or dream of could end right there if they choose to have children.

Re: You're Too Old for That: Age Discrimination in Japan Tech

#77

Post by mixmastamyk »

SoftTalker wrote: post #51
JKCalhoun wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We (at Apple) interviewed a guy who was about my age (and I was already in my 50's at that time, ha ha). The interview(s) went great as far as I could suss but when we, the interviewers, met to go around and give the potential hire a thumbs up or thumbs down — one guy on our team was decidedly thumbs down. Why was he thumbs down? "I don't think he's a good fit for the team." When pressed for what that means he simply…

There might be reasons you want to avoid hiring older software devs. I'm in my 50s. I've been through the death marches, the unrealistic goals, the 60-hour weeks, the last minute emergencies, the all-nighters trying to get a release out or trying to recover from the fallout of a poorly tested release. I won't do it anymore. Nobody I know who is my age will do that anymore. There's almost nothing that will keep me at…

If you do hire them and put them in a leadership position, you’ll most likely not have any of the mentioned issues.

Oh, and move faster over the medium term because everything doesn’t have to be written three times.

That’s what experience does.

Re: You're Too Old for That: Age Discrimination in Japan Tech

#78

Post by Dalewyn »

zeroCalories wrote: post #58
vhcr wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Insurance?

You can't insure against losing someone important in the early days of a startup. You lose the context and knowledge invested into the person, and replacing them will take time, which is even more valuable for a startup. Sure, things don't matter at a megacorp that has enough of a buffer to weather these leaves, but I'm sympathetic to startups that don't want to hire women. I don't know what the solution is, but it c…

It's not just startups.

Airline companies of all sizes are really hesitant to hire women pilots, because training and certifying pilots is fucking expensive in both money and time. They really do not want to invest in a new pilot only for her (or him, for that matter) to say "Yeah, I'm quitting/taking leave for my new baby." and have to write off their investment that could have gone to another would-be pilot who would fly with them for many decades.

Re: You're Too Old for That: Age Discrimination in Japan Tech

#79

Post by netchkin »

cubefox wrote: post #40
tetrisgm wrote: post #21

In the next 10 to 15 years, tech is going to have a lot of millennial who reach 50+. We'll have a similar challenge in the US where tech culture leans towards hyping youth, and the new reality.

If the AI progress in the next 10 to 15 years will be like the AI progress in the last 10 to 15 years, tech culture will no longer hype youth anyway, or human employees in general.

It won't be the progress in AI, but the ever increasing human tolerance to bugs and shitty software, hardware and products in general. This is what will enable AI to thrive.

Re: You're Too Old for That: Age Discrimination in Japan Tech

#80

Post by Gibbon1 »

gyomu wrote: post #24
jalapenos wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bit disingenuous wording - they don't exclude men from photos & age. The US has summary firing. In Japan if you're a permanent employee you can reasonably expect to remain so. From the people pissing in bottles at Amazon your protections don't sound any better. Hiring discrimination against child bearing aged women is universal - it's just in the US they have to be more careful how they do it.

Yep. I once had the CEO of an early stage, venture backed SF startup I worked for confide to me: “you know, every time we interview a woman in her late 20s/early 30s, I just have to wonder if she’ll take maternity leave 6 months in to working with us. As a startup we just can’t afford that”. Of course the public face of the company was all about fighting inequality, supporting diversity, etc.

Yeah that's spot on because like nope never have I had a male friend go now that my wife and I have a kid what I need is more money and flexible work hours. So bye. Okay I'm breaking the site guidelines because every man I knew at my age has done that.
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