Guys - Epic lost the lawsuit. That's why nothing changed. Why does this feel exactly like the 2020 election, where one side lost but keeps complaining that everyone is acting like they lost.
Apple to Developers: Heads I win, tails you lose (part 2)
71–80 of 128 posts
Re: Apple to Developers: Heads I win, tails you lose (part 2)
#72Earlier quoted context omitted.
Did brick and mortar stores have a monopoly on software distribution?
Not sure what point you are trying to make here. You think that developers got a better deal when software was sold in brick and mortar stores? I remember when the App Store was first announced, there was much excitement among developers over Apple only taking a 30% cut.
What? No, my point is developers would get a better deal when there isn't a monopoly on the distribution. Is it not obvious that the 27% fee is only possible due to lack of competition? That if there were other stores selling iPhone apps then competition would drive down the 27% fee?
Re: Apple to Developers: Heads I win, tails you lose (part 2)
#73I'm surprised that so many developers are siding with Apple in this regard. If other stores and payment options were allowed I genuinely believe that: - Apple's own fees would be reduced relatively quickly - Technological savvy users will be able to discern which external sites are safe and get even lower prices when available - Very few companies will be able to afford not being on the App Store (especially if Apple…
Unfortunately the most vulnerable will be easily manipulated into bypassing whatever prompts are needed. The threat vector is facebook telling users to install Instagram/FB from their own app store instead of from the App Store, both eroding their privacy (since they won't be mandated to respect the "do not track" popup) as well as training them how to install apps from third-party sources and that "it's OK to sidelo…
PSA, do not install Facebook on your iPhone. Use your browser.
Apple does deserve credit for forcing some privacy improvements on iOS for the Facebook app but it is in no way comparable to the privacy of a web browser. If you are using Facebook's app because you're on iOS and you're thinking, "oh it's fine, Facebook can't track me" -- please uninstall it, a native app on iOS still has far more tools at its disposal to track you than it should have.
As just one example, I would like to say that Facebook's in-app browser code on iOS is now blocked (https://www.engadget.com/meta-can-track-facebook-and-instagr...) but I'm not sure if that's actually the case. I hope it is, a quick cursory search couldn't tell me but it's very possible that Apple patched this by now. But what I do know is that Apple made a lot of noise about blocking tracking code before this article came out and while Facebook still had these capabilities.
Don't use known untrustworthy native apps. Don't use them on Android, and don't use them on iOS.
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Also to be clear, the privacy improvements Apple has pushed for on iOS are in no small part to stop allowing access to an advertising ID that should not be on iOS at all. I don't want to act like there's no meaningful improvement here, Facebook's reaction is proof enough that Apple's changes did increase privacy. And I fully support Apple improving privacy. But some of that improvement is Apple putting controls in front of systems that shouldn't exist or covering for systems that are way more open and way less sandboxed than they should be.
So part of the difficulty of talking about Apple's security models and the role that the app store plays in that process is that some of Apple's policies are really only enforced on the app store, even though they should be enforced at an OS level that would apply to every app regardless of what app store it came from. Of course, not every permission can be expressed that way, but some permissions can. Web browsers are proof of that -- Safari doesn't have a quality control system in place to block abusive websites like Facebook, but despite that, it still manages to be better for your privacy for you to use Facebook from Safari instead of via a native app on iOS.
I worry that Apple's app store polices are sometimes used as an excuse to avoid building much more robust protections against tracking into the OS itself, and I worry that better privacy standards on the iOS app store get interpreted as proof that native apps on iOS are just generally safe and private. But Apple's standard of what counts as private "enough" to be on the app store is not always as strict as it could be. Generally speaking, until we get much better sandboxing controls on mobile devices than we have today, known malicious or known privacy-intrusive apps like Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, or Threads should not be installed period from any app store 1st or 3rd-party, they should be used in a web browser.
Reasonable people can disagree whether a 3rd-party app store would make this problem worse, but please don't have the takeaway of "a 3rd party app store would make the Facebook app suddenly unsafe and my parents would get fooled into installing it." The Facebook app is already unsafe, and your parents already shouldn't be using it.
Re: Apple to Developers: Heads I win, tails you lose (part 2)
#74Since when did we as an industry start championing rentseeking that adds no value? Yes, the App Store is valuable. No, generic payment processing rails aren’t. Even the 1-3% charged by CC companies is bullshit. Apple, of course, charges 10x this. The only reason they get away with it is because they have leveraged cryptography to stifle competition. If other app stores were possible on iOS, Facebook and Epic and Netf…
A dishonest comment since we know the app store fee is not just for payment processing.
Re: Apple to Developers: Heads I win, tails you lose (part 2)
#75The judge ruled that Apple is entitled to take a cut of transactions, regardless of who acts as your payment processor.
> as discussed in the findings of facts, IAP is the method by which Apple collects its licensing fee from developers for the use of Apple’s intellectual property. Even in the absence of IAP, Apple could still charge a commission on developers. It would simply be more difficult for Apple to collect that commission.
https://stratechery.com/2021/the-apple-v-epic-decision/
The judge did hint that Epic screwed up by arguing that Apple should not get a cut of transactions at all, instead of arguing that 30% was too high.
Re: Apple to Developers: Heads I win, tails you lose (part 2)
#76I'm surprised that so many developers are siding with Apple in this regard. If other stores and payment options were allowed I genuinely believe that: - Apple's own fees would be reduced relatively quickly - Technological savvy users will be able to discern which external sites are safe and get even lower prices when available - Very few companies will be able to afford not being on the App Store (especially if Apple…
That's because most iOS developers aren't confused about the situation. Apple's commission is for the App Store, SDKs, Developer Support etc. Not just a payment processing fee. And so if there are other stores and payment options which there will be soon Apple is still within their right to collect that fee. As every court around the world has said. They could collect it as a percentage of sales like Epic or just lum…
https://www.reuters.com/technology/dutch-regulator-disputes-...
We're actually not 100% certain whether or not Dutch regulators are OK with those fees. We know that they consider Apple to still not be in compliance with the regulation, and there have been hints that the fee structure may be a part of that. But as far as I know we haven't gotten specific confirmation from Dutch regulators in either direction.
We know that 30% was too high, so according to the Dutch there is an upper limit to what Apple can charge proportional to its normal fees for in-app payments: https://www.reuters.com/technology/dutch-antitrust-watchdog-...
27% might be OK?
We'll have to wait until after Apple's responses to the most recent fines to work their way through courts to know whether the concerns listed most recently by Dutch regulators are the full list or not. It seems a little premature to say that every court in the world is fine with Apple's system when it doesn't seem that Apple has built a compliant Dutch system for us to even point to as an example of what that system could look like.
As it stands, we know that Apple's 3rd-party payment system is not compliant, but we don't know exactly why it's not compliant, and we won't know what a fully compliant system looks like for the Dutch government until after Apple has managed to come up with a proposal that doesn't get them fined for noncompliance.
Re: Apple to Developers: Heads I win, tails you lose (part 2)
#77Earlier quoted context omitted.
Some would argue that Apples practices clearly protect the consumer from malware, privacy issues and scams. It is obvious to me that if Epic won iOS could be a worse product, at least for me.
Exhibit A: https://www.theverge.com/2020/7/30/21348130/apple-documents-... > Jobs said, “[i]t’s time for Amazon to decide to use our payment mechanism or bow out [of the App Store],” > Jobs said: “I think this is all pretty simple — iBooks is going to be the only bookstore on iOS devices. We need to hold our heads high. One can read books bought elsewhere, just not buy/rent/subscribe from iOS without paying us, which…
I barely ever see consumers complain about the ecosystem, mostly companies and developers. And I just don’t feel like they are going to use a more an open system to the benefit of the consumer. I trust them _a lot_ less than Apple.
Re: Apple to Developers: Heads I win, tails you lose (part 2)
#78Earlier quoted context omitted.
Did brick and mortar stores have a monopoly on software distribution?
Not sure what point you are trying to make here. You think that developers got a better deal when software was sold in brick and mortar stores? I remember when the App Store was first announced, there was much excitement among developers over Apple only taking a 30% cut.
Not among Mac developers who distributed their software over the web directly to customers, bypassing the middlemen.
Also, little did we know at the time that the App Store would inaugurate a race to the bottom, devaluing software. What does the cut even matter if you have to sell software at the same price as a music single?
Re: Apple to Developers: Heads I win, tails you lose (part 2)
#79Earlier quoted context omitted.
Unfortunately the most vulnerable will be easily manipulated into bypassing whatever prompts are needed. The threat vector is facebook telling users to install Instagram/FB from their own app store instead of from the App Store, both eroding their privacy (since they won't be mandated to respect the "do not track" popup) as well as training them how to install apps from third-party sources and that "it's OK to sidelo…
I doubt it, otherwise we'd see this in Android. And while it does happen of course, it's vanishingly rare. Anecdotally I have plenty of friends and family who are neither technically proficient nor well educated and they seem to be doing just fine. Instead it's a boon, especially for folks like myself who use a fair amount of software from alternative stores/installers.
Re: Apple to Developers: Heads I win, tails you lose (part 2)
#80Earlier quoted context omitted.
Probably the navigation I guess, though it's not something I've given much detailed thought into. I just know that whenever I pick up a friend's Android, I hate the experience.
I hate the experience of a non ergonomic rectangular device in general. It’s uncomfortable to use in most situations. For example I use my pinkie finger to support the weight of my device when I type. The weight of the iPhone 14 combined with a case is enough to leave a permanent impression in my pinkie from heavy use. A contoured case that considers how people actually hold their device would be nice. If we were to…