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Ask Valve employees: How well does the flat organization work?

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Re: Ask Valve employees: How well does the flat organization work?

#71

Post by codeonfire »

Paul_Morgan wrote: post #24

Best Buy has something similar called ROWE: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ROWE The business measures performance instead of hours. At Valve the performance appears to be measured as 'shipped'. I'd also guess that Gabe is practicing his own version of servant leadership: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Servant_leadership

ROWE isn't similar. You still have people telling everyone what to do. Only now the deadlines and expectations will be ridiculous. "I don't care how many hours it takes you this week, just get it done! We only care about results here.". The valve method would imply that middle manager would not exist.

Re: Ask Valve employees: How well does the flat organization work?

#73

Post by scrod »

RegEx wrote: post #13
flavien_bessede wrote: post #4

Next up: "Poll: How many people consider switching to Valve organization?"

Cue the Agile coaches switching over to teaching "Valve". "Refinery" meetings are held in a format called the "Engine room".

They would never do this because only a manager would hire someone like an "Agile coach". A fully flat organization has no managers, hence, the hired consultant would be forced to advocate for the dismissal of his own client.

Re: Ask Valve employees: How well does the flat organization work?

#74

Post by zobzu »

jquery wrote: post #59
lifeformed wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reminds me of living with roommates. It takes literally 10 seconds to wash (not just rinse, but entirely wash) a bowl and a spoon. Nothing has to stay in the sink - just wash things right when you're done using them.

A proper dishwasher spends 20-60 minutes throwing water at dirty dishes. 10 seconds leaves tons of bacteria and dirt still on the dish.

A propose dishwasher sends water around, and its not very strong to avoid breaking stuff. Hand washing is a lot more efficient.

Anyhow on point, takes 10s (or maybe 30) to wash ur dish and leave it in the sink xD Takes 5-10min if you leave it and wash it the next day.

Re: Ask Valve employees: How well does the flat organization work?

#75

Post by zobzu »

codeonfire wrote: post #71
Paul_Morgan wrote: post #24

Best Buy has something similar called ROWE: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ROWE The business measures performance instead of hours. At Valve the performance appears to be measured as 'shipped'. I'd also guess that Gabe is practicing his own version of servant leadership: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Servant_leadership

ROWE isn't similar. You still have people telling everyone what to do. Only now the deadlines and expectations will be ridiculous. "I don't care how many hours it takes you this week, just get it done! We only care about results here.". The valve method would imply that middle manager would not exist.

Given that middle managers usually don't really produce or do anything, it certainly makes Valve's way sound interesting.

Re: Ask Valve employees: How well does the flat organization work?

#76

Post by _casperc »

cypherpunks01 wrote: post #27

For more context, here's their employee handbook that explains their flat org: http://newcdn.flamehaus.com/Valve_Handbook_LowRes.pdf

That was an incredibly inspiring read. Now I want to work there more than anything, but I don't feel worthy. Off to make myself more T-shaped.

Edit: I would still love to hear how it actually is to work there in practice though.

Re: Ask Valve employees: How well does the flat organization work?

#77

Post by Locke1689 »

wpietri wrote: post #29

How do you deal with the Dunning-Kruger effect? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning-Kruger_effect The short version is that people who are good at things generally get that way because they have a strong ability to tell good work from bad. People who are bad at things can't tell the difference, so they a) have a hard time improving, and b) think their low-quality work is pretty swell. Is your culture perhaps unusual…

The most important horn of the effect is dependent upon hiring incompetent people. What makes you think they hire incompetent people?

Moreover, this question could also be reduced to a question about their hiring in general.

Re: Ask Valve employees: How well does the flat organization work?

#78

Post by scotty79 »

loboman wrote: post #19
wpietri wrote: post #11

Do the dishes in the office sink get washed? If so, by whom? And how clean is the kitchen area? This may seem like a joke, but the answer says a lot about an organization. For example, last time I was at the Wikimedia Foundation offices, this sign was above the sink: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:These_dishes_may_requ...

Does this assume that developers should wash the dishes? If so, why is that a good idea? I would assume that developer time is too expensive for that...

Whenever I did anything not programming related at the place where I worked I had a feeling that I'm getting money for free.

I was selling work of and inexperienced tea maker or dishwasher or cleaner or delivery man to my employer at hourly rate of a skilled programmer. One of the best deals I've ever done albeit short one.

Re: Ask Valve employees: How well does the flat organization work?

#79

Post by FreakLegion »

wpietri wrote: post #46

How many hours a day does the average Valve person spend in meetings? How are they organized? I've looked into some co-ops, including San Francisco's venerable (and very profitable) Rainbow Grocery. One of the biggest complaints is the amount and/or difficulty of meetings, but they see them as necessary to settle issues with sufficient buy-in from all stakeholders. How does Valve minimize that pain?

Have you read Valve's article on cabals? It's fairly old, but should give you some insight into how they approach meetings.

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/3408/the_cabal_valves_...

Re: Ask Valve employees: How well does the flat organization work?

#80

Post by option_greek »

wpietri wrote: post #11

Do the dishes in the office sink get washed? If so, by whom? And how clean is the kitchen area? This may seem like a joke, but the answer says a lot about an organization. For example, last time I was at the Wikimedia Foundation offices, this sign was above the sink: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:These_dishes_may_requ...

Long ago, my previous company ditched paper cups in favor of ceramic cups for coffee. You should have seen the disruption in everyone's workflow.

Since you have to actually wash the cup after you drink from it, there were long queues before the kitchen sinks.

People started reducing the number of cups of coffee they drink :) and instead started dozing off (not joking)

People started congregating around the pantry or kitchen because if you wander off with your cup around the office, you still have to come back to kitchen to clean it up.

I used to wonder the whole 'go green' thing at the time because anyway the paper cups are going to be recycled :)

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