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A vision for the alleviation of water scarcity in the US Southwest

caseyhandmer.wordpress.com

71–80 of 161 posts

Re: A vision for the alleviation of water scarcity in the US Southwest

#71

We desperately need to focus on conservation efforts instead of attempting to engineer "solutions" that only end up encouraging further consumption. Hot take: Maybe the American SouthWest wasn't meant to support > 1/3 of America's agricultural output. Solar desalination of the Salton traps humanity in an energy contract when we could achieve meaningful conservation efforts instantaneously by banning the production of…

This is Hacker News. Even if everything ultimately cannot be solved by technology, we sure as hell are going to give it our best try. That’s literally our most abundant resource here.

Re: A vision for the alleviation of water scarcity in the US Southwest

#72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AFAICT, restoring the Salton Sea and capturing the land appreciation is the mechanism for funding the project, not the goal. The goal is to restore the Colorado river.

And what pays for it again in a decade when the corroded water pipelines start to need replacement? Or 30 years when the solar reaches end of life? I assume original developers will have cashed out by then, someone else is left holding the bag, and the Salton Sea collapse story plays out a second time because it's just too expensive to maintain. That, or it's an exclusive enclave to the LA ultra-wealthy who don't min…

High property values and rich residents mean lots of property and income taxes to pay for maintenance.

Re: A vision for the alleviation of water scarcity in the US Southwest

#73
I am by no means a desalination expert, but pumping vast amount of a salty water 100+ kilometers (Pacific Coast) or from the Sea of Cortez (closer to 200kms) seems strange as compared to building the desalination plant on the shore and transfer the electricity generated in the desert. One can also replace some drinking or agricultural water used way closer to the coast in CA from the Colorado Basin with the newly desalinated one. Way less pumping. Or do I miss something?

Re: A vision for the alleviation of water scarcity in the US Southwest

#74
post #63

I know he inputs some numbers, but I am just supremely skeptical of them. If solar + batteries + RO plants could produce water at a price that made agriculture economically viable, then I just don't see how it wouldn't already be happening. Or at the very least be being proposed more broadly than some random guys blog. If I understand correctly, it is his plan for extracting value from the brine which represents the…

Places with the saltwater don't want to build large pipelines to send it to places without. The places without are so dry they cannot drill, condense or truck in salt water, even though they have plenty of solar. That's a coordination problem with public rights of way issues which is why it wouldn't happen without specific government policy.

You realize that desal is already being used in various places in the world, including for (secondarily) ag, right? So there are already places producing the brine. Why aren't they mining it for value? As far as I'm aware, it is universally being discharged.

So either it's harder to extract value from it than this person supposes or no one else has ever thought to try and get value from it.

The second one isn't impossible but I'm not just going to believe it with no evidence.

Re: A vision for the alleviation of water scarcity in the US Southwest

#75

We desperately need to focus on conservation efforts instead of attempting to engineer "solutions" that only end up encouraging further consumption. Hot take: Maybe the American SouthWest wasn't meant to support > 1/3 of America's agricultural output. Solar desalination of the Salton traps humanity in an energy contract when we could achieve meaningful conservation efforts instantaneously by banning the production of…

Arizona is starting to solve the alfalfa problem at least

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/03/climate/arizona-saudi-ara...

Re: A vision for the alleviation of water scarcity in the US Southwest

#76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems to me it would initially be a narrowly scoped to the immediate outflow. As the brine dissipates I assume it will be normalized by the rest of the ocean as it's diluted. However, as with all human endeavours, scaling up will scale up the problem. And we won't pay attention to that until it's a huge issue.

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Not the OP, but I think humans in general find it difficult to scale up. Whether in software or manufacturing or politics or environmental issues, we're much more equipped to deal with 1 or 10 of something than 100,000 or 1 trillion of it.

At the end of the day we're still limited by our biology and brains, evolved for very different setting than the world we now live in. We try and we get by but by and large we're not doing great at large scale issues, whether it's jobs or housing or healthcare or saving the planet or just plain getting along with each other.

We're primates adapted for small group living in local communities, abruptly given way more power than our biology was designed for. Is that misanthropic? I dunno. If dolphins had opposable thumbs, they'd probably have gotten themselves into a similar bind.

Re: A vision for the alleviation of water scarcity in the US Southwest

#77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree with the skepticism, and furthermore if this were such a killer moneymaker you'd expect multiple commercial efforts in this space already. But this is California - there may be reasons that are not economic or technical that have prevented anyone from trying to develop or pursue such an idea. The concentrated salt-brine discharge, for example, may be impossible to get environmental approval for at these volumes…

Israel is, I believe, the place in the world that has the most desal, and is actually already using it for ag. I'm not familiar with domestic/development policy in Israel, but I have trouble believing it's as restrictive as the CA. So not only has CA not already done it, but neither has Israel, who, at the very least must have different roadblocks. The point is, it's not only California (which I agree is pretty anti-…

Part of it might just be timing. The price of Magnesium and Lithium spiked in 2022; what was not viable prior to 2022 may be viable now.

Re: A vision for the alleviation of water scarcity in the US Southwest

#78

Apart from whether the economics make sense brine disposal from desalinization is a big issue. Waste with high salt concentrations can wipe out marine life - it would be nice if this piece took the issue a little more seriously. It's a continuing problem in the Canary Islands which are dependent on desalinization plants: "Rejected brine is a serious threat to marine ecosystems, causing negative effects on both flora…

> RO desal splits the incoming ~3% salinity stream into two halves, one fresh and one ~6% salinity. This concentrated brine is fed to adjacent brine processing facilities (ideally in both countries) that exploit the region’s abundant solar and geothermal energy to extract potentially millions of tonnes of lithium, sodium, magnesium, chloride, and other metals found in sea water. The resulting depleted brine is piped…

In an environment where solar and geothermal electricity are abundant enough to make this work, it would be far easier to condense water straight from the air by refrigeration.

Re: A vision for the alleviation of water scarcity in the US Southwest

#79

I know he inputs some numbers, but I am just supremely skeptical of them. If solar + batteries + RO plants could produce water at a price that made agriculture economically viable, then I just don't see how it wouldn't already be happening. Or at the very least be being proposed more broadly than some random guys blog. If I understand correctly, it is his plan for extracting value from the brine which represents the…

I think the biggest thing this new wave of water desalinization evangelists are latching onto is tightly integrating green energy sources into the process to effectively offset the energy costs (economically and ecologically). But honestly I can't tell if it's really a new generation of designs that'll make desalinization feasible where it currently isn't, or just another example of green washing.

For the basics, practical engineering did a good video on desalinization: https://youtu.be/mxqOPdEUNTs

Re: A vision for the alleviation of water scarcity in the US Southwest

#80
> The solar panels convert wasted sunlight into electricity, one of the most useful forms of energy, at the lowest cost ever in human history. The batteries make this power available at night, enabling 100% utilization of the higher capex systems downstream. The RO desal plant uses this power to strip salt out of fresh water

I wonder if you could store the energy as pressure instead of electricity in batteries.

From what I gather[1], the biggest energy draw in reverse osmosis is pressurizing the water to force it through the RO filters. So, while the sun is shining, fill a tank halfway with salty water, then use solar energy to run pumps to pressurize air above the water. When the sun isn't shining, you now have pressurized water you can let through the RO filters.

Compared to a regular RO plant, this requires high-pressure storage tanks and additional pumps. I'm unsure whether that costs less than batteries or not.

Another part of the analysis is that, if you do build the batteries, they can earn extra money with a side gig stabilizing the grid. Occasionally, when grid conditions get very gnarly, you could shut down the RO plant for a few hours and make a quick buck selling your battery power on the market.

Alternatively, you could pump the water uphill during the day and let gravity supply the energy to force it through the RO filters at night. This means you'll have to build a special reservoir for pre-treated salty water somewhere, though, and you need a lot of pressure, so it would need to be at a high elevation.

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[1] Source (kind of old): https://www.oas.org/dsd/publications/unit/oea59e/ch20.htm

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