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AI or Ain't: Eliza

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Re: AI or Ain't: Eliza

#71

Post by masswerk »

pixl97 wrote: post #57
masswerk wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With the small reservation that this is not how Eliza works. Eliza sits on top of MAD/SLIP which does all the heavy work and provides lists and integer indexes, which is what is processed by Eliza. This allows Eliza to work on decomposition rules, which isolate keywords per position and context, and transformation (composition) rules to recombine elements and links between those two. Meaning, the model is much more t…

>how eager we are to overestimate the capabilities of such a partner in conversation, as soon as some criteria seem to be satisfied. Which is arguably still relevant today. Honestly, AI shouldn't be the takeaway point here, but how we do the same for politics.

On a not so serious note, most political careers seem to be built on public utterances that seem to be generated by a rule set that could fit into 3 pages, triggered by a handful of keywords or trigger phrases, also known as talking points. With the advent of the so-called culture wars, most of this is also increasingly context-free and doesn't require much of world knowledge. Users, err, voters will fill in the gaps eagerly, each according to their respective phantasies and understanding. To the point that Eliza may eventually become a worthy contestant. An approval rate of 27% is certainly a good starting point…

Re: AI or Ain't: Eliza

#72

Post by pixl97 »

__MatrixMan__ wrote: post #64
pixl97 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or another way to put this, it's not a binary problem, it's a probability continuum. Even the definition of 'human intelligence' is a continuum from the smartest to the dumbest of us, that doesn't even stop there and descends thought all animal life.

I did some research to prove you wrong, because I don't think continuum is the right concept, but it turns out that Turing seems to agree with you. Quoting him in "Computing Machinery and Intelligence": > In short, then, there might be men cleverer than any given machine, but then again there might be other machines cleverer again, and so on. So now I think you're both wrong :) Particularly I take issue with the assu…

I mean an evolutionary tree where intelligence features are added in some branches makes sense.

I guess part of what I was trying to address is that we like to think of intelligence as what people do and are the pinnacle of, and discounting anything that is not covered by that.

Re: AI or Ain't: Eliza

#74

Post by masswerk »

derbOac wrote: post #60
nbzso wrote: post #3

So the Turing test actually tests not a technology but the level of intelligence of the user. So, we are doomed, it seems.:)

I've often felt that a better version is not whether a person can guess that it's AI or a human, but whether people behave and feel differently with an AI or human. That's vague and covers a universe of criteria — mood, satisfaction with the conversation, actual behavior and so forth — but it also I think is a more realistic gauge of AI performance. It's probably unattainable but that's not necessarily a bad thing. I…

In a sense, the question of the "intelligent machine" is somewhat self-contradictory: To us, the question of intelligence matters as a preposition or qualifying term, for to what extent, probability and prospects we may pose an appeal to sympathy, moral and ethics. (In other words, it is not about trust in any realistic faculties, but about judgement – and then, to what extent we may trust in this.) However, this prospect doesn't fit well our expectations towards machines, which are all about repeatability and reproducible results in given tolerances… (Compare ChatGPT's so-called winter depression and the arising need to plead and argue with the device for any complex results. As the device gains in the emotional domain, its worth in the application domain radically decreases.)

Re: AI or Ain't: Eliza

#75

Post by __MatrixMan__ »

pixl97 wrote: post #72
__MatrixMan__ wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did some research to prove you wrong, because I don't think continuum is the right concept, but it turns out that Turing seems to agree with you. Quoting him in "Computing Machinery and Intelligence": > In short, then, there might be men cleverer than any given machine, but then again there might be other machines cleverer again, and so on. So now I think you're both wrong :) Particularly I take issue with the assu…

I mean an evolutionary tree where intelligence features are added in some branches makes sense. I guess part of what I was trying to address is that we like to think of intelligence as what people do and are the pinnacle of, and discounting anything that is not covered by that.

I definitely agree that defining intelligence as what humans do is a problematic practice. I guess I just wanted to nit pick a little.

There's definitely a lot of "it's not real intelligence because it's not human intelligence" going around these days. Doesn't seem like it's going anywhere useful though.

Re: AI or Ain't: Eliza

#76

Post by holoduke »

adestefan wrote: post #68
stavros wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Especially that computers can decide what comes next, but only a human can choose what to do. I don't understand this, all the programs I've ever written make decisions based on some factors. Are you talking about free will? If so, what is free will?

A girl would like to ask a boy to the high school dance. A computer can do all the calculations to decide on if it's a good idea. Given the inputs of the time they have spent together, the number of glances that are passed between then in the halls between classes, if he doesn't have a date yet or not, etc. The probability adds up to ask. So the machine decides to ask. The girl feels it. Has all the time they've spen…

All the tingles, feelings, anxieties and hesitations are activities triggered by little programs that work autonomously and are fully deterministic. The girl is fooled

Re: AI or Ain't: Eliza

#77

Post by adestefan »

holoduke wrote: post #76
adestefan wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A girl would like to ask a boy to the high school dance. A computer can do all the calculations to decide on if it's a good idea. Given the inputs of the time they have spent together, the number of glances that are passed between then in the halls between classes, if he doesn't have a date yet or not, etc. The probability adds up to ask. So the machine decides to ask. The girl feels it. Has all the time they've spen…

All the tingles, feelings, anxieties and hesitations are activities triggered by little programs that work autonomously and are fully deterministic. The girl is fooled

HN consistently reminds me of the park bench scene in Good Will Hunting.

Re: AI or Ain't: Eliza

#78

Post by ryanklee »

tempodox wrote: post #51
jll29 wrote: post #2

Here is the pointer to the original Eliza paper https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/365153.365168 Note that Weizenbaum was an AI critic: Weizenbaum's intention was not for Eliza to pass the Turing test, but to show to people that a clearly not intelligent program based on primitive pattern matching can appear to behave intelligently. He failed: His own secretary wanted to be left alone with the software and typed in her p…

All this “AI” hype is a constant reminder to me that you cannot reason anybody out of something that they want to believe. People's need to believe in miracles is obviously stronger than all reason.

> cannot reason anybody out of something that they want to believe.

Especially when your own reasons are not the slam dunk you think they are.

Re: AI or Ain't: Eliza

#79

Post by DonHopkins »

scotty79 wrote: post #35

Can one see original Eliza sourcode anywhere?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27332340

DonHopkins on May 30, 2021 | prev | next [–]

Here's the source code for Kent Pitman's "DOCTOR" in MACLISP, which was of course inspired by ELIZA. (Joseph Weizenbaum taught Kent Pitman LISP!)

https://github.com/PDP-10/its/blob/master/src/games/doc.102

And here's what happened with he (manually by typing) hooked it up with Kenneth Colby's "PARRY" (the paranoid patient):

https://www.maclisp.info/pitmanual/funnies.html

>Parrying Programs

>I didn't write the original ELIZA program, although my Lisp class was taught by Joseph Weizenbaum, who did. I later wrote a very elaborate program of similar kind, which I just called DOCTOR, in order to play with some of the ideas.

>At some point, I noticed there was a program at Stanford called PARRY (the paranoid patient), by Kenneth Colby. I understand from Wikipedia's PARRY entry that Weizenbaum's ELIZA and PARRY were connected at one point, although I never saw that. I never linked PARRY with my DOCTOR directly, but I did once do it indirectly through a manual typist. Part of my record of this exchange was garbled, but this is a partial transcript, picking up in the middle. Mostly it just shows PARRY was a better patient than my DOCTOR program was a doctor.

>I have done light editing to remove the typos we made (rubbed out characters were echoed back in square brackets).

>Also, I couldn't find documentation to confirm this, but my belief has always been that the numeric values after each line are PARRY's level of Shame (SH), Anger (AN), Fear (FR), Disgust (DS), Insecurity (IN), and Joy (J).—KMP

[...]

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38402813

DonHopkins 44 days ago | parent | context | favorite | on: The Revival of Medley/Interlisp

That's right, it's just a throw-away quip, but if you want the deep nuanced story and inside history of Common Lisp and comparison with Scheme, Kent Pitman is the one to read:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_Pitman

Index of Kent Pitman's Papers:

https://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/

Scheme or Lisp? Kent M Pitman explains the deep philosophical differences.

https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/6fa5r/scheme_o...

Kent Pitman on Scheme or Lisp?:

https://groups.google.com/g/comp.lang.lisp/c/TEk4O4-zsA8/m/H...

Common Lisp: The Untold Story:

https://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/cl-untold-story.html

Why Wolfram Mathematica did not use Lisp (2002) (ymeme.com):

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9797936

https://web.archive.org/web/20110122140154/http://www.ymeme....

Kent Pitman's essay on why lisp doesn't have copying of lists.

https://groups.google.com/g/comp.lang.lisp/c/MmtQreo3PCM

Parenthetically Speaking with Kent Pitman: The Best Intentions: EQUAL Rights -- And Wrongs -- In Lisp:

https://www.nhplace.com/kent/PS/EQUAL.html

Kent M. Pitman Answers On Lisp And Much More:

https://developers.slashdot.org/story/01/11/03/1726251/kent-...

Kent M. Pitman's Second Wind:

https://developers.slashdot.org/story/01/11/13/0420226/kent-...

Tutorial on Good Lisp Programming Style: Peter Norvig, Sun Microsystems Labs Inc; Kent Pitman, Harlequin Inc.:

https://www.cs.umd.edu/~nau/cmsc421/norvig-lisp-style.pdf

Notes from the ANSI standardisation process:

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/72414053/notes-from-the-...

Issue CLOS-CONDITIONS Writeup:

https://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw50/CLHS/Issues/iss...

On Pitman's “Special forms in Lisp” (2011) (kazimirmajorinc.com):

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29947329

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29954993

DonHopkins on Jan 16, 2022 | parent | next [–]

Kent Pitman also wrote the "Revised Maclisp Manual (Saturday Evening Edition)" aka the "Pitmanual".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_A._Moon

http://www.nhplace.com/kent/publications.html

>In 1983, I finished the multi-year task of writing The Revised Maclisp Manual (Saturday Evening Edition), sometimes known as The Pitmanual, and published it as a Technical Report at MIT's Lab for Computer Science. In 2007, I finished dusting that document off and published it to the web as the Sunday Morning Edition.

http://www.maclisp.info/pitmanual/

Not to be confused with David Moon who wrote the "MacLISP Reference Manual" aka the "Moonual", and who co-authored the "Lisp Machine Manual" with Richard Stallman and Daniel Weinreb, which had big bold lettering that ran around the spine and back of the cover, so it was known as the "LISP CHINE NUAL" (reading only letters on the front).

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15185827

https://hanshuebner.github.io/lmman/title.xml

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15186998

DonHopkins on Sept 6, 2017 | next [–]

The cover of the Lisp Machine Manual had the title printed in all caps diagonally wrapped around the spine, so on the front you could only read "LISP CHINE NUAL". So the title was phonetically pronounced: "Lisp Sheen Nual".

My friend Nick made a run of custom silkscreened orange LISP CHINE NUAL t-shirts (most places won't print around the side like that).

https://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw50/CLHS/Issues/iss...

I was wearing mine in Amsterdam at Dappermarkt on Queen's Day (when everyone's supposed to wear orange, so I didn't stand out), and some random hacker (who turned out to be a university grad student) came up to me at random and said he recognized my t-shirt!

http://www.textfiles.com/hacking/hakdic.txt

CHINE NUAL (sheen'yu-:l) noun.

The reference manual for the Lisp Machine, a computer designed at MIT especially for running the LISP language. It is called this because the title, LISP MACHINE MANUAL, appears in big block letters -- wrapped around the cover in such a way that you have to open the cover out flat to see the whole thing. If you look at just the front cover, you see only part of the title, and it reads "LISP CHINE NUAL"

toomanybeersies on Sept 7, 2017 | parent | next [–]

Link to an image of the manual, for the lazy:

https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/101/264672507_307376d26c_z.jpg

[...]

;;; Notes about CLI interrupts and eval-in-other-lisp:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20267415

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38061207

>Here's Kent Pittman's :TEACH;LISP from ITS, which is a MACLISP program that teaches you how to program in MACLISP. (That's "Man And Computer Lisp" from "Project MAC", not "Macintosh Lisp".)

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