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Coal and fossil fuel use in Germany at a record low for electricity in 2023

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Re: Coal and fossil fuel use in Germany at a record low for electricity in 2023

#71

Post by toomuchtodo »

kgabis wrote: post #70
toomuchtodo wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Overproduction of renewables, transmission, and battery/pumped hydro storage negates the need for fossil gas for that last bit of power. Certainly, today, fossil gas is used to fill the gaps, but as the world begins deploying in excess of 1TW/year of renewables this year, that fossil gas will be rapidly pushed out of the mix. And it is arguably better to let those generation facilities become stranded and require dec…

It sounds great until you start doing the math. We can't decarbonise without nuclear, just look at Germany. It's a poster child for renewables yet it's barely doing better than Poland (where I live). Meanwhile France is (as of now) emitting 1/10th of Germany's CO2 per unit of energy generated.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/12/21/us-can-get-to-100percent-cle...

https://www.euronews.com/green/2021/11/01/most-scenarios-tod...

There are lots of grids without any nuclear power already. Poland only has ~34GW of total fossil generation, very easy to replace without nuclear.

https://app.electricitymaps.com/zone/PL?wind=false&solar=fal...

Re: Coal and fossil fuel use in Germany at a record low for electricity in 2023

#72

Post by locallost »

kgabis wrote: post #67
locallost wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's often tossed around that reactors can work for 80 years, but not a single one has managed that yet. The longest running nuclear plant is Beznau in Switzerland, now running for 54 years. But it needed extensive and expensive repairs around 10 years ago costing billions [1]. Swiss media reported that the reactor contains thousands of holes. [2] So the reality is less simple and rosy than people like to pretend. [1…

Yes, nuclear reactors need maintenance, but extensions to 80 years are being approved, so 80+ years doesn't seem unrealistic for existing reactors.

It's neither realistic nor unrealistic, we don't really know because it hasn't been done. What we do know is that it won't be cheap. France for instance plans to invest 20-25 billion per year to keep its fleet running. But they are all in on nuclear and basically have no way out. Decommissioning of their 56 reactors would bankrupt their electricity sector so they're kicking the can down the road. The rest of the world will have cheaper options.

Re: Coal and fossil fuel use in Germany at a record low for electricity in 2023

#73

Post by kleiba »

kgabis wrote: post #70
toomuchtodo wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Overproduction of renewables, transmission, and battery/pumped hydro storage negates the need for fossil gas for that last bit of power. Certainly, today, fossil gas is used to fill the gaps, but as the world begins deploying in excess of 1TW/year of renewables this year, that fossil gas will be rapidly pushed out of the mix. And it is arguably better to let those generation facilities become stranded and require dec…

It sounds great until you start doing the math. We can't decarbonise without nuclear, just look at Germany. It's a poster child for renewables yet it's barely doing better than Poland (where I live). Meanwhile France is (as of now) emitting 1/10th of Germany's CO2 per unit of energy generated.

By which metric is Germany barely doing better than Poland? In 2023, Poland produced 26% of its electricity from renewable sources [1], while Germany produced 52%. And that is with more than twice the amount of people living (and using energy) in Germany as compared to Poland.

[1] https://notesfrompoland.com/2024/01/03/poland-produced-recor...

Re: Coal and fossil fuel use in Germany at a record low for electricity in 2023

#74

Post by kgabis »

kleiba wrote: post #73
kgabis wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds great until you start doing the math. We can't decarbonise without nuclear, just look at Germany. It's a poster child for renewables yet it's barely doing better than Poland (where I live). Meanwhile France is (as of now) emitting 1/10th of Germany's CO2 per unit of energy generated.

By which metric is Germany barely doing better than Poland? In 2023, Poland produced 26% of its electricity from renewable sources [1], while Germany produced 52%. And that is with more than twice the amount of people living (and using energy) in Germany as compared to Poland. [1] https://notesfrompoland.com/2024/01/03/poland-produced-recor...

Renewable energy is not the target, carbon neutrality is. German CO2 emissions per capita were only marginally better than Poland's in 2022 (8.0t vs 8.1t).

Re: Coal and fossil fuel use in Germany at a record low for electricity in 2023

#75

Post by yongjik »

locallost wrote: post #72
kgabis wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, nuclear reactors need maintenance, but extensions to 80 years are being approved, so 80+ years doesn't seem unrealistic for existing reactors.

It's neither realistic nor unrealistic, we don't really know because it hasn't been done. What we do know is that it won't be cheap. France for instance plans to invest 20-25 billion per year to keep its fleet running. But they are all in on nuclear and basically have no way out. Decommissioning of their 56 reactors would bankrupt their electricity sector so they're kicking the can down the road. The rest of the worl…

This sounds more like anti-nuclear propaganda. Decommissioning a functioning nuclear reactor doesn't need to be more expensive than running it. You just unplug it, let it naturally cool down, and later you can figure out how to recycle the unspent fuel (or bury it deep enough, if people really demand it) at your leisure.

And if renewables really live up to the hype (I kinda hope it does, because otherwise it will get rather awkward for the climate), France can decide to install those fancy always-available renewables at that time, without going thru the pesky "We're being praised for our renewables while burning so much coal and gas!" stage Germany is famous for.

Re: Coal and fossil fuel use in Germany at a record low for electricity in 2023

#76

Post by locallost »

yongjik wrote: post #75
locallost wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's neither realistic nor unrealistic, we don't really know because it hasn't been done. What we do know is that it won't be cheap. France for instance plans to invest 20-25 billion per year to keep its fleet running. But they are all in on nuclear and basically have no way out. Decommissioning of their 56 reactors would bankrupt their electricity sector so they're kicking the can down the road. The rest of the worl…

This sounds more like anti-nuclear propaganda. Decommissioning a functioning nuclear reactor doesn't need to be more expensive than running it. You just unplug it, let it naturally cool down, and later you can figure out how to recycle the unspent fuel (or bury it deep enough, if people really demand it) at your leisure. And if renewables really live up to the hype (I kinda hope it does, because otherwise it will get…

Yes and everyone has a pot with endless gold.

Re: Coal and fossil fuel use in Germany at a record low for electricity in 2023

#77

Post by kleiba »

kgabis wrote: post #74
kleiba wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By which metric is Germany barely doing better than Poland? In 2023, Poland produced 26% of its electricity from renewable sources [1], while Germany produced 52%. And that is with more than twice the amount of people living (and using energy) in Germany as compared to Poland. [1] https://notesfrompoland.com/2024/01/03/poland-produced-recor...

Renewable energy is not the target, carbon neutrality is. German CO2 emissions per capita were only marginally better than Poland's in 2022 (8.0t vs 8.1t).

Well, I would say that if your population is twice as big as that of another country, any per capita goal is naturally much harder to achieve.

Re: Coal and fossil fuel use in Germany at a record low for electricity in 2023

#78

Post by kgabis »

kleiba wrote: post #77
kgabis wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Renewable energy is not the target, carbon neutrality is. German CO2 emissions per capita were only marginally better than Poland's in 2022 (8.0t vs 8.1t).

Well, I would say that if your population is twice as big as that of another country, any per capita goal is naturally much harder to achieve.

That's not how per capita works.

Re: Coal and fossil fuel use in Germany at a record low for electricity in 2023

#79

Post by kgabis »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #71
kgabis wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds great until you start doing the math. We can't decarbonise without nuclear, just look at Germany. It's a poster child for renewables yet it's barely doing better than Poland (where I live). Meanwhile France is (as of now) emitting 1/10th of Germany's CO2 per unit of energy generated.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/12/21/us-can-get-to-100percent-cle... https://www.euronews.com/green/2021/11/01/most-scenarios-tod... There are lots of grids without any nuclear power already. Poland only has ~34GW of total fossil generation, very easy to replace without nuclear. https://app.electricitymaps.com/zone/PL?wind=false&solar=fal...

You're focusing on electricity and omitting heating, transport, industry and farming.

Re: Coal and fossil fuel use in Germany at a record low for electricity in 2023

#80

Post by kleiba »

kgabis wrote: post #78
kleiba wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I would say that if your population is twice as big as that of another country, any per capita goal is naturally much harder to achieve.

That's not how per capita works.

It absolutely is.
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