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Frustration, Disappointment And Apathy: My Years At Microsoft

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Re: Frustration, Disappointment And Apathy: My Years At Microsoft

#71

Post by loup-vaillant »

michaelochurch wrote: post #28

OP's story is unfortunate, but this is tame compared to some of the things I've seen or heard of in the past five years. If this is TC-worthy, I've seen enough dirt to fertilize the Sahara. This is a case of company and person who didn't work out, but it doesn't leave me feeling that Microsoft was unethical or mean-spirited about it (which is more than I can say of many, many companies). Badly run, sure, but not evil…

> Terrible move. Like, Ned Stark in Game of Thrones.

Thanks for the explicit warning. This may even deserve a tvtropes name, like "Stark Blunder". That move is so tempting, it feels so right, so virtuous, that really, the sheer karma boost should make you invincible.

Except it doesn't.

Re: Frustration, Disappointment And Apathy: My Years At Microsoft

#72

Post by tallanvor »

michaelochurch wrote: post #23
AznHisoka wrote: post #12

I can empathize with the OP, but why go through the hassle of causing a commotion, and making it a Techcrunch story? Just leave amicably - they're NOT forcing you to work. You can get up and leave anytime you want, which is the mature thing to do.

I think we should encourage people like OP to speak up. For years, we've had a climate where people are terrified to speak up about unethical management practices, bad hiring and worse firing, and other idiocies within organizations where they've worked. Why? Why is the employee supposed to protect an employer that might have screwed him over royally? This is American Spring. People are speaking the fuck up, and it's…

"American Spring"? Hardly. We're not talking about the government, here.

Look, you want to make complaints about your former employer? Fine. But if you do so publicly, be prepared to have a much harder time finding your next job (or if you've already found your next job, they may reevaluate their decision to hire you). Any company should be wary about hiring someone who has a history of airing their dirty laundry in public.

The truth is that if you want to, you can create change, even in large companies like Microsoft, and even without being in a management position. Most people are simply too impatient and not willing to do the work. --It takes time to build influence and figure out what has to be said in public vs in private. Most(?) engineers aren't very good at politics - we're blunt and worry more about saying what we think needs to be said than how people will take it, an approach that tends to fail miserably when dealing with non-engineers.

And, of course, eventually you'll probably move to another company no matter what. When I've decided to move on, I've always made sure to send my manager an email describing what I think the company was doing right, what it was doing wrong, and what made me decide it was time to leave. At that point, they can decide how much of that they want to share up the management chain, and this way I don't burn bridges.

Re: Frustration, Disappointment And Apathy: My Years At Microsoft

#73

Post by chris_wot »

When I worked at a very large software company, I worked for a division that was absolutely riven with bugs. As time went on, I noticed that the developers were arrogant, yet they also weren't as good as they thought they were. The QA process was broken as nobody could touch their code, the Product Management them were technically clueless so they didn't know how to handle the situation, and the guy up the top, well, he was too busy playing politics that the whole ship o' fools was springing leaks everywhere.

I got angrier and angrier. In the end I didn't give a crap and I was sending angry emails pointing out the problems daily.

And you know what? I was part of the problem. Hindsight is a great thing, but I wish I'd left on better terms, without anger. If you can't change the firm, don't get angry. Smile at the people around you, be pleasant, and then resign. You'll be much happier for it, and the foolish group you leave behind will probably fall behind you. Getting angry didn't change this for them, they were bound to fail anyway - why be dragged down by that?

Re: Frustration, Disappointment And Apathy: My Years At Microsoft

#75

Post by kamaal »

tallanvor wrote: post #72
michaelochurch wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we should encourage people like OP to speak up. For years, we've had a climate where people are terrified to speak up about unethical management practices, bad hiring and worse firing, and other idiocies within organizations where they've worked. Why? Why is the employee supposed to protect an employer that might have screwed him over royally? This is American Spring. People are speaking the fuck up, and it's…

"American Spring"? Hardly. We're not talking about the government, here. Look, you want to make complaints about your former employer? Fine. But if you do so publicly, be prepared to have a much harder time finding your next job (or if you've already found your next job, they may reevaluate their decision to hire you). Any company should be wary about hiring someone who has a history of airing their dirty laundry in…

>>The truth is that if you want to, you can create change, even in large companies like Microsoft, and even without being in a management position. Most people are simply too impatient and not willing to do the work.

My experience has been the opposite. Every time I've tried to create some nice stuff, the manager above me always perceived as a threat to his position.

And he purposefully rewarded under performers and build his own gang around such people to gather support.

In fact one manager told me, I am not a good player because I was going too fast, and good team player always goes as fast his team.

In other words, he wanted me to become as inefficient as others if I had to become his best man.

Good experience in $LARGECOMPANIES are exceptions, not rules.

Re: Frustration, Disappointment And Apathy: My Years At Microsoft

#76

Post by antihero »

jay_kyburz wrote: post #42
sudoscience wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No Game of Thrones spoilers, please!

Arg, read the books. Don't wait for the TV version. There is so much more to enjoy in the longer format.

Leave that up to us, please, and do not spoil.

Re: Frustration, Disappointment And Apathy: My Years At Microsoft

#77

Post by kamaal »

michaelochurch wrote: post #31
ryanmolden wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, there is definitely a balance to strike between just venting your spleen and calling out real douchebaggery. I have always suspected the "never talk about being screwed over/speak ill of a previous employer" meme is strikingly similar to the kind of meme sociopaths would want to become "the norm". Absent anyone talking about their experiences (good or bad) there would really be much less downside for terrible b…

I have always suspected the "never talk about being screwed over/speak ill of a previous employer" meme is strikingly similar to the kind of meme sociopaths would want to become "the norm". Not sociopathy. Managerial tribalism. To be fair, you probably wouldn't want to work with a company that didn't respect technical talent, right? Well, that goes both ways. Most people making hiring decisions are managers, and ther…

>>The disquieting thing about managerial tribalism is that the good protect the bad. No programmer would argue against the fact that there are some people in software engineering jobs who don't deserve to be there... but managers have a hard time admitting that the bottom 40% of their tribe (at least) are counterproductive, unethical, or even destructive.

That is because the default job of a manager doesn't involve 'getting things done'. That itself brings their profession a degree of inefficiency. Add to this some managers just perceive their jobs as merely exchanging emails, calling for pointless status meetings, asking questions about things they have no clue of, approving leave requests, pushing things as they are as long as they can and things like that. And for that they need to build faithful loyal gang of people, to can bend to their service at command.

True managers lead with example. Bring business, build business, promote meritocracy, and building strong teams that can form common goals and achieve them.

Re: Frustration, Disappointment And Apathy: My Years At Microsoft

#78

Post by danssig »

zerop wrote: post #74

Is it professional to badmouth your ex-employer?

Your ex-employer certainly doesn't think so. Especially if they were awful.

Personally, I'd like to see as much transparency as possible. Jobs are a market like anything else. The more transparent, the more possibilities for efficiency.

Re: Frustration, Disappointment And Apathy: My Years At Microsoft

#79

Post by gaius »

antihero wrote: post #76
jay_kyburz wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Arg, read the books. Don't wait for the TV version. There is so much more to enjoy in the longer format.

Leave that up to us, please, and do not spoil.

Sorry, but the event referred to was in the book published in 1996. There has to be a statute of limitation on "spoilers".

PS Titanic sinks.

Re: Frustration, Disappointment And Apathy: My Years At Microsoft

#80

Post by danssig »

stevenj wrote: post #64

In my experience, I haven't gotten along with 9/10 people I've met who work at -- and are passionate about -- Microsoft. It's not because they're not driven to succeed (they are). Nor is it because they're overly confident. It's because all 9 have lacked empathy and/or the ability to listen. Now I can tolerate that, provided you do great work. I've learned that if you can't separate the art from the artist, you may n…

Realistically, what "great products" has MS produced? From my perspective, MS has always been vastly better at winning the market because they're nearly always competing with inferior products.
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